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In order to qualify to be president, the U.S. Constitution states, “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

So what defines a “natural-born citizen”?  The answer has not been so simple over the years. The framers left it fairly vague and up to us to interpret throughout our history, and it is an issue that has gone back and forth.

This has all been brought into question as a result of one man whom various media outlets have kept an eye on as a possible presidential candidate in 2016. The man in question is freshman U.S. Senator Ted Cruz (R-TX).

Cruz was born in Canada to an American mother and a Cuban father. His parents were working in the oil business there. Cruz’s father did not become a U.S. citizen until 2005. So though he has made trips to Iowa and the media seems to be watching him quite closely, does he even meet the qualifications of being a natural-born citizen?

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Section 1 of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

This still only leaves a very vague definition for what constitutes a natural-born citizen. So now we look toward Section 5 of the 14th Amendment which states, “The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.”

It should also be noted that under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4 of the U.S. Constitution, Congress has authority to create law regarding naturalization which includes citizenship.

So now we know that Congress, under the 14th Amendment, can write legislation declaring what constitutes a natural-born citizen. And yes, that means that there will be legal challenges and the U.S. Supreme Court (SCOTUS) will have to make sure such legislation does not violate the Constitution in any way… including Section 1 of the 14th Amendment.

In the case Minor v. Happersett (1875), the court ruled, “The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.”

“At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents.” – Minor v. Happersett

Though the Constitution is vague in what constitutes a natural-born citizen, Congress has stepped in to attempt to fill in the gap. Under Title 8 of the U.S. Code, Section 1401 defines the following as citizens of the United States upon birth… or natural-born citizens:

  • Anyone born inside the United States. The person must be “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States. (This would exempt the child of a diplomat, for example, from this provision.)
  • Any Indian or Eskimo born in the United States, provided being a citizen of the U.S. does not impair the person’s status as a citizen of the tribe
  • Anyone born outside the United States, both of whose parents are citizens of the U.S., as long as one parent has lived in the U.S.
  • Anyone born outside the United States, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year and the other parent is a U.S. national
  • Anyone born in a U.S. possession, if one parent is a citizen and lived in the U.S. for at least one year
  • Anyone found in the U.S. under the age of five, whose parentage cannot be determined, as long as proof of non-citizenship is not provided by age 21
  • Anyone born outside the United States, if one parent is an alien and as long as the other parent is a citizen of the U.S. who lived in the U.S. for at least five years (with military and diplomatic service included in this time)

By the conditions just laid out, it would appear that Senator Ted Cruz is not eligible to run for president as he would not qualify as a natural-born citizen since only one of the parents was a citizen of the U.S.

However, there still exists one more historical clause which will challenge this argument. The clause states, “a person born before May 24, 1934 of an alien father and a U.S. citizen mother who has lived in the U.S.” is a citizen.

Does this change the argument? If it is grouped with Section 1401 of Title 8 of the US Code, then it would appear so.

Currently, citizenship in the U.S. is governed by the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952.  The most recent changes to statutory law was done by Congress in 2001. So since this most recent debate has circulated around Cruz, I am going to focus on one particular section… birth abroad to one U.S. citizen.

There are a certain set of rules for those born after November 14, 1986, but I’m focusing on the rules at the time of Cruz’s birth, which are the rules that were in effect from December 24, 1952 – November 14, 1986. A person born abroad between those dates is a U.S. citizen upon birth if all of the following are true:

  1. The person’s parents were married at the time of birth;
  2. One of the person’s parents was a U.S. citizen when the person was born;
  3. The citizen parent lived at least ten years in the United States before the child’s birth; and
  4. A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent’s 14th birthday.

By these very definitions of the law, it would appear that Cruz is a natural-born citizen and thus meets the qualifications to run for president if he decided to do so. This also does one more thing, as well.

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In regards to President Obama, if the “birther” theory had been proven correct (and I’m not saying that it is) in that he had been born in Kenya (instead of Hawaii) to his U.S. mother and his Kenyan father, he would still qualify as a natural-born citizen.

As I stated at the beginning, this issue is a complicated mess. The Framers left it vague when they wrote the Constitution. Did they do it because they couldn’t foresee our future situations or was it so we could make such a determination as our nation progressed? One can only really speculate on that.

Regardless, we have done our best to set forth a definition, and one that holds for all Americans — born here and born abroad. The laws have changed throughout our history, and they will probably change again in our future.

For now, we go by the laws which we have — the laws in which we live by — the laws that govern our society. They apply to us all equally. In this confusing mixture, I hope there has been some small sense to the issue and that now we can have a better understanding of it.

About the Author

James Spurgeon
James Spurgeon

James has a degree in communications and works within the media. He knows how to research any topic that he writes about… approaching the topic from both sides of the issue and break them down. He doesn’t consider himself a Democrat or a Republican.

Join the discussion Please be relevant and respectful.

The Independent Voter Network is dedicated to providing political analysis, unfiltered news, and rational commentary in an effort to elevate the level of our public discourse.


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3409 comments
KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@andybuzz2u

My crank warning alarm goes off the minute a piece opens up saying that the Supreme Court was wrong, and only a little reading confirms that the paper you linked to misrepresents the historical record. It's a propaganda piece, no different from what partisan think tanks do today.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

EXTRA, EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT!

Soetorocare is upheld as Constitutional by the Supreme Court. Justice Kennedy and Chief Justice Roberts join with the liberals for a 6-3 majority.

ksdb
ksdb

Obama -- a natural-born combination of Brian Williams and Rachel Dolezal.

jh4freedom
jh4freedom

The self-styled "Birther Princess" Miki Booth is a woman who lives in Oklahoma but she was born and raised in Hawaii. Ms Booth's son Allan was also born in Hawaii and Miki Booth has posted a copy of his birth certificate online.

Note that Allan Booth's birth certificate is also a "Certificate Of Live Birth."

http://www.wnd.com/images/boothbc1.jpg

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@jh4freedom Not to mention the same Doctor that delivered Obama delivered her son.  It really drives her nuts to know Dr. Sinclair is tied to her son's birth.

jh4freedom
jh4freedom

I did not know (notice) that! Thanks for pointing it out.

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@jh4freedom The really nutty birthers say Miki helped with the Obama forgery. Since all the published birth certificates from August 1961 support Obama's, birthers like Doug Vogt think they are all forgeries. A few birthers even deny Hawaii is a State, or say Obama was born  in 1959 before statehood (or in 1960 and claim Hawaii became a state in 1960).

ksdb
ksdb

@PogueMoran @jh4freedom We don't know that the same doctor delivered Obama. Since Obama's LFBC can't be verified, the doctor's name could have been borrowed from a different source document.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @PogueMoran @jh4freedom Or Miki Booth's son's doctors name could have been borrowed from Obama's LFBC.  It's amazing the hoops you continue to jump through in order to believe something completely irrational.  


The LFBC was verified by Onaka.  You can't get around that.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Under Hawaii law, any judge can issue a court order for the original birth certificate to inspect it. Also Congress can issue a congressional subpoena for it.

ksdb
ksdb

@PogueMoran @ksdb @jh4freedom You have it backwards, Moron. Onaka REFUSED to verify the LFBC was a true copy of an original birth record. You can't get around this.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @PogueMoran @jh4freedom Well then you don't know what the words you use actually mean since he verified that the document matched the original.  Look up the word verify.  Look up the word match.  Since you seem confused once again.  Onaka wasn't under any obligation to use magic words that birthers want.  Only in a bither's syphilitic mind would a verification somehow mean the opposite.

RussFowler
RussFowler

@PogueMoran @ksdb @jh4freedom  If someone made a fake BC then later on made a copy of the fake BC, then of coarse the copy will match the original.

Bring out the original for all the courts to see.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@RussFowler @PogueMoran @ksdb @jh4freedom Wow so you come back after a week or so with more nonsense.  So you're claiming someone faked the record in 1961 and inserted it into the hawaiian records without them knowing?  You do realize your conspiracy theory would have to include thousands of people over a 50 year period.


There is no precedence for a birth certificate having to be in court in order to be called legit.  There is no requirement from any court for the original to be shown.  The issuing authority backs up the document.  The constitution tells you to fuck yourself on this since Hawaii has final say on their documents.

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@ksdb @PogueMoran @jh4freedom

There is no need to "get around" it. Onaka didn't have Obama's copy of the birth certificate to examine, and the statute under which the secretaries of state requested the verification doesn't provide for such. Onaka did what the law allowed him to do, and that provides all the necessary evidence to prove Obama was born in the USA.

And, if you haven't noticed, Obama is president, and you are just ranting on the Internet.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

At any time, zdr. Onaka can be called to testify underoath in a court of law or before a committee of Congress to clarify exactly what he verified or didn't verify.

As of today, both of the Republican Secretaries of State in Arizona and Kansas cleared Barack Obama as eligible for their states' ballots after receining Dr. Onaka's certified verification letters.

There's just no way around this statement followed by Dr. Onaka's signature on the Certified Letters of Verification:

"I certify that the information contained in the vital record on file with the Department of Health was used to verify the FACTS of the vital event."

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

But what if Dr. Sinclair, the birth doctor or someone else at Kapiolani filled out a real birth certificate for a birth that didn't happen at that hospital. Any inspection would show a real, legitimate birth certificate from 1961 but the data on it would be fake.

ksdb
ksdb

@PogueMoran @ksdb @jh4freedom The law says Onaka must verify information as stated by the applicant. Two applicants asked if the layered PDF was a true copy. Onaka refused TWICE to say it was. It has nothing to do with magic. His failure to verify this standard fact means the LFBC is not genuine.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 This doesn't mean a petitioner can get any judge in Hawaii to issue that order or to get Congress to issue a subpoena. Hell, under law, Hawaii can simply release the birth certificate to the public, but clearly they've refused to do this, so what makes you think these other actions would actually happen? So much for this silly talking point. 

ksdb
ksdb

@KevinDavidson @ksdb @PogueMoran @jh4freedom Dr. Fraud, you're relying on circular logic to avoid admitting these obvious. Onaka is the caretaker of the record. He should know if the layered PDF is the same copy that he issued.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 This doesn't mean Sinclair's signature wasn't lifted from another valid document. 

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

If that can be proven in a court of law, to a judge and/or jury, more power to you. But over the last four years, that hasn't happened. If conservative members of Congress had even the slightest concern about the Barack Obama birth certificate, I'm certain that they would have held investigative hearings on the issue; like they have for Fast and Furious, Benghazi, Obamacare, the IRS targetting of Tea Party groups and many other Obama administration-related issues.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 It's not going to be proven in law when Obama and his lawyers refuse to submit either of the alleged hard copies of the LFBC. They aren't stupid. They know it won't pass inspection. The members of Congress avoided this issue because they don't want to lose potential voters.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Obama and his lawyers submitted copies of his long form birth certificate to Judge Michael Mahili in the Georgia eligibility challenges and to U.S. District Court Judge Henry Wingate in the Mississippi eligibility challenge.

The Alabama Democratic Party submitted a copy of President Obama's birth certificate for the nine Republican justices on the Alabama Supreme Court in their Amicus Brief filed in support of Republican Alabama Secretary of State Beth Chapman in the Alabama eligibility challenge McInnish v Chapman.

The copies submitted in all instances were hard copies of the long form Certificate of Live Birth which the president received from the Hawaii Department of Health.

The LFBCs submitted in Mississippi and in Alabama were accompanied by Certified Letters of Verification for it from the Hawaii Registrar.

If any of the judges and justices wrte dissatisfied with the copies they received, they could isue court orders for inspection of the original document. But none took that additional step.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

The original hard copy birth certificate is not the property of Barack Obama. It is the property of the state of Hawaii. It is available for inspection under court order, via a congressional subpoena or via discovery in a court action, civil or crimina,l in which the state of Hawaii is a named defendant.

Anyone alledging forgery, document tampering or identity theft should use the criminal courts not civil lawsuits.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @Jimmyjam6 And how exactly does the law allow for a mass issuance to the public?  The law doesn't allow disinterested third parties to obtain birth certificates for random people.  They refused since there is no requirement for them to release a birth certificate to a bunch of whiners on the internet.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @KevinDavidson @PogueMoran @jh4freedom Lets add circular logic to things you don't understand.  Circular logic is the birther line that the only reason they question Obama and not other presidents is simply because he's the only one they have questions about.


Only in crazy birther world is a verification not a verification.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @Jimmyjam6 And again another stupid conspiracy theory.  It matches the original on file with the department of health.  How do we know that Miki booth's certificate didn't lift the signature off Obama's?

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @Jimmyjam6 There is no requirement for Obama to submit hard copies to a court.  That doesn't somehow change the authenticity of the document.


Wow congress avoided it because they don't want to lose voters?  That's fucking stupid.  Birthers barely make a dent in the populace they can't even get more than 10 people in the same room together.  I'm sure congress isn't afraid of losing votes from a bunch of crazy people.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

You go to the most conservative, Obama hating judge that you can find. You make your case and get the judge to issue a court order. If the state of Hawaii refuses to comply, the judge issues a contempt of court citation and imprisons the Hawaii Registrar and/or Health Director for up to 18 months or until he/they complies with the judge's order.

Just ask Susan McDougall, the buddy of Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton who refused to testify in the Whitewater Affair and spent 18 months in federal prison for her intransigence.

At the very least, this brings worldwide attention to the issue.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 Obama and his lawyers did NOT submit any copies of the long form birth certificate in Georgia. He was advised to submit any kind of evidence, but none was ever submitted.


The copies you're talking about in Alabma and Mississippi were photocopies, not certified copies of the original LFBC. The photocopies don't show any evidence that the alleged LFBC was ever certified. The letters of verification from Hawaii have been debunked already. None declared any photocopy or any layered PDF to be a true copy of an original verifiable birth record. That any of the judges "accepted" the photocopies is meaningless. From what I recall, both courts delayed hearing and deciding these cases. Obama lost those states, so the procedural effort was academic at that point. 

ksdb
ksdb

@PogueMoran @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 Moron, they were worried about losing votes from knuckleheads like you who reflexively paint Republicans as racist if they dare to question Obama's eligibility. 

ksdb
ksdb

@PogueMoran @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 No one said anything about a conspiracy theory. Whether it "matches" a document on file is meaningless when the registrar refuses to say the document is a CORRECT copy as rules of evidence require. And who cares about Miki Booth?? 

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

According to Dr. Orly Taitz who was one of the plaintiffs' attorneys in the Georgia eligibility challenge, Michael Jablonski, President Obama's attorney submitted a copy of Obama's birth certificate to Judge Mahili and Dr. Taitz claimed that because of the birth certificate being entered into evidence in a trial on the merits, she should be granted discovery in that lawsuit. Here's a link to what Dr. Taitz said:

http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/judge-malihi-gave-me-a-leave-of-court-to-petition-the-superior-court-for-letters-rogatory-to-the-circuit-court-of-hi-seeking-local-subpoena-for-obamas-original-birth-certificate-in-lieu-of-the-alleg/

Federal Rule of Evidence 1005: "Copies of Public Records To Prove Content"

The proponent may use a copy to prove the content of an official record — or of a document that was recorded or filed in a public office as authorized by law — if these conditions are met: the record or document is otherwise admissible; and the copy is certified as correct in accordance with Rule 902(4) or is testified to be correct by a witness who has compared it with the original. If no such copy can be obtained by reasonable diligence, then the proponent may use other evidence to prove the content.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_1005

The nine ELECTED Republican Justices on the Alabama Supreme Court and the Ronald Reagan nominee federal judge in Mississippi accepted the copies of President Obama's birth certificate and the Hawaii Registrar's Letters of Berificatin without objection and Obama's eligibility prevailed in both trials.

It should be noted that Beth Chapman in Alabama and Delbert Hosemann in Mississippi were Republican Secretaries of State who both defended Barack Obama's eligibility.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

If I was in the Republican leadership in Congress, I would have convinced Senator Tim Scott of South Carolna and Representatives Mia Love of Utah and Will Hurd of Texas (a former CIA agent) who are black Republicans to take the lead in challenging Barack Obama's eligibility. Out the window goes any charges of racism.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 You're using Orly Taitz to make your argument for you?? Really?? Also, weren't you guys arguing that Hawaii would hand the birth certificate right over to attorney who had a subpoena?? How did that work out??


And Jimmy, did you not read what you just quoted from the Rules of Evidence?? How stupid.


"... if these conditions are met: the record or document is otherwise admissible; and the copy is certified as correct in accordance with Rule 902(4) or is testified to be correct by a witness who has compared it with the original."

You just proved my point for me. 

The political parties of the particulars in Alabama and Mississippi are moot. I've already explained these politicians did not want to risk losing potential voters. Obama lost in those states, so this wouldn't change anything there. 


Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Dr. Taitz was there in the court room in Georgia and she actually saw the exhibits and evidence, I wasn't. Do you thnk that she was lying about Obama's attorney submitting a copy of the birth certificate?

The Federal Rule of Evidence allows for copies of public records to be entered into evidence, the plaintiffs did not object to the use of copies and the Letters of Verification backed up the authenticity of the copies.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 Tim Scott was given an F rating by the NAACP. A liberal outlet already went after Mia Love in 2012 for being an "anchor baby." So much for that idea. 

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 There weren't any letters of Verification in Georgia. In the original hearing, Obama's lawyers did not submit evidence. 

"Malihi’s decision came without any evidence being presented by Obama or his lawyer after they refused to participate in the required hearing under a state law that mandates all candidates qualify for the office they seek."


You're trying to conflate separate situations and circumstances. I've already explained why these courts "accepted" the evidence. They didn't want to get politically ambushed for daring to challenge the first Kenyan POTUS. 

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@ksdb @Jimmyjam6

Nothing about the Hawaii verifications has been "debunked." Just because you don't like them, and just because you have concocted some silly criteria for validity that has no basis in law or logic, does not a debunking make. Your debunking proves only your own bias intellectual deficit. The verifications say Obama was born in Hawaii. Birth place proven. Obama elected. You lose.

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@ksdb @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 The question of where Obama was born, and whether his certificate is a fake are two separate questions. Birthers like to blur them together so that they can use one to confuse the other. 

Hawaii officially verified to the secretaries of state that Obama was born in Hawaii, so Obama is proven born in the US. for ballot and eligibility and access purposes. Obama was on the ballot in all 50 states, with secretaries of state of both parties. Birtherism has always been about making Obama ineligible so that they can deny that the man they hate is not really president.  They lost that legal battle definitively.

Given that Obama was born in the US, there is simply no rational narrative that explains a forged birth certificate; however, a Xerox machine explains the birth certificate fully and completely. Taitz submitted a copy of that certificate in Georgia, and failed to impeach, it, so a preponderance of the evidence (with the birthers being the only ones making an argument) led to the conclusion that Obama was eligible.

Birthers hide behind the slim reed of the certificate never being presented in court and adjudicated. They ignore the fact that Obama is president, and that they lost. The Hawaii Department of Health web site Obama FAQ page is headed by this statement:

"On April 27, 2011 President Barack Obama posted a certified copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth."

Rather than focus on what is says, you and your ilk focus on what it doesn't say so that you can spin your theories and lies. You are in denial, and blinded by bias.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @Jimmyjam6 And there was no requirement for a letter of verification in Georgia and you still lost to an empty chair.

What was it that the judge said about the birther claims and witnesses?  They provided no probative value.


Lol so your explanation is there must be some "conspiracy" in the courts.  That's funny many courts have challenged the President on his policies despite the fear of being politically ambushed as you claim.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 Once again you come up with a convoluted explanation when the simplest explanation is always the best.  Your claims simply didn't have any merit.  They seemed perfectly okay with opposing him on his policies and are okay with saying bigoted things despite people thinking them to be racist.  Your explanation just doesn't hold any merit.

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@ksdb @Jimmyjam6 You are correct. All the requisite evidence in the Georgia case to prove Obama eligible was submitted by the birthers. Obama won defended by an empty chair. That speaks volumes about the quality of the birther argument. It loses when it is the only thing presented.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @Jimmyjam6 So then even the craziest of the crazy in congress won't take up your stupid cause.  Liberal media went all anchor baby?  Are you sure it wasn't some of your right wing crazies?

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@ksdb @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 Umm yeah you're pretty much claiming conspiracy on everything.  Congress don't think your claims have merit?  Obviously they're afraid of being called racists.  Courts don't think your claims have merits?  Obviously they're afraid as well.  It seems your whole narrative is based on irrational fear.


The Registrar said it was a correct copy if you bothered to crack open a dictionary and look at what "facts" "verify" and "match" mean you would easily see that.  But you wanted some magic words because you're an irrational tool.  Apparently half the birther movement does.


The rules of evidence don't support your claim when it comes to a verification in lieu of a certificate.

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@ksdb @Jimmyjam6 This excuse of the courts being afraid gets pretty thin after you use it TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY TIMES (the number of failed Obama eligibility cases). While Malihi's decision was not based on any evidence being presented by Obama's side, it was based on the evidence presented by the birther side, sufficient evidence to meet the standard of proof to the judge's satisfaction.

The birther side presented all sorts of evidence proving Obama's eligibility, and then failed to impeach it. Birthers lost to an empty chair, but not an empty pile of evidence.

Dave B.
Dave B.

@Jimmyjam6

So...there would be no racism inherent in selecting those individuals for no other reason than their race, to shield from a charge of racism?

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@KevinDavidson @Dave B. @Jimmyjam6 That's not cynicism.  KD's claim comes simply from stupidity.  It's a false sense of nihilism where you believe nothing except when it contradicts your earlier claims like what Mario did on another thread.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

All's fair in love, war and politics.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

I'd call it an astute political maneuver.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

From Judge Mahili's ruling: Swensson, Powell, Farrar and Welden v Obama, Administrative Law Judge Michael Mahili, State of Georgia Administrative Hearings: “For the purposes of this analysis, the Court considered that Barack Obama was born in the United States. Therefore, as discussed in Ankeny, he became a citizen at birth and is a natural born citizen. Accordingly, President Barack Obama is eligible as a candidate for the presidential primary under O.C.G.A. under Section 21-2-5(b). February 3, 2012

http://www.scribd.com/doc/80424508/Swensson-Powell-Farrar-Welden-vs-Obama-Judge-Michael-Malihi-s-Final-Order-Georgia-Ballot-Access-Challenge-2-3-12

From Bob Unrah, worldnetdaily:

"They also sent a copy to the court of Judge Michael Malihi, the hearing officer, whose ruling is expected to be made available in the next few days.

That act, Taitz explained, effectively gave the court a copy of the White House documentation, and under ordinary rules of evidence the opposing side is supposed to have access to the original to verify the authenticity of the purported copy."

“They submitted a copy and said this is a copy of the original birth certificate. Now the other party has a right to examine the original,” she said.

Her next step was to ask Malihi for a letter to the courts in Hawaii seeking a subpoena for the records. When the judge responded that the issue probably was outside his jurisdiction as an administrative law judge, she received permission to take her request to the Fulton County Superior Court.

http://lettingfreedomring.com/2012/02/01/green-light-to-see-obamas-hawaii-files/

David in MA
David in MA

@Jimmyjam6  BUT, what about his father being a British citizen? Which makes Obama a citizen, maybe, but not a NBC!

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@Jimmyjam6 It could be that Jablonski sent a copy of the certificate to the court. I can't personally verify that this point (not trusting Bob Unruh).

In any case, it did not enter into Malihi's decision, as he wrote: "This decision is entirely based on the law, as well as the evidence and legal arguments presented at the hearing."

Malihi concluded that the Exhibits from Taitz were of little probative value. I just note that a copy of Obama's birth certificate, as well as a contemporary record from the State Department both provided evidence of Obama's  birth in Hawaii.

In the end, the Farrar decision was moot, the Superior Court ruling that it should never have been heard. The Superior Court says that the State of Georgia cannot intervene in the internal presidential preference primary process of a party. There never was any requirement to show eligibility. The Superior Court further said that even if the State could intervene, Petitioners failed to effect service upon the respondents.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Purpura & Moran v Obama, New Jersey Eligibility Challenge:

New Jersey Administrative Law Judge Jeff S. Masin: “No court, federal, state or administrative, has accepted the challengers’ position that Mr. Obama is not a “natural born Citizen” due to the acknowledged fact that his father was born in Kenya and was a British citizen by virtue of the then applicable British Nationality Act. Nor has the fact that Obama had, or may have had, dual citizenship at the time of his birth and thereafter been held to deny him the status of natural born. It is unnecessary to reinvent the wheel here. … The petitioners’ legal position on this issue, however well intentioned, has no merit in law. Thus, accepting for the point of this issue that Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii, he is a ‘natural born Citizen’ regardless of the status of his father.” April 10, 2012

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Unrah was quoting Orly Taitz. She said essentially the same thing on her blog:

To paraphrase: Jablonski sent a copy of the birth certificate to Judge Mahili and that should mean I get discovery of the original, vault edition birth certificate.

Maybe it works that way in Moldova but the state of Georgia has no impact on Hawaii statutes.

David in MA
David in MA

@Jimmyjam6  Also, these are interesting words: "“For the purposes of this analysis, the Court considered that Barack Obama was born in the United States"

David in MA
David in MA

@Jimmyjam6  IF he were a dual citizen he would have to declare citizenship in either of the two countries via the immigration department, did he?

RussFowler
RussFowler

@KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6  I seen a copy of my ancestry came over on the Mayflower. What more proof do you need? I will get one of my friends to type one out for you to believe.

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@David in MA @Jimmyjam6

Those words were contained in the section on the legal definition of natural born citizen. The defendants represented by Irion and Hatfield never asserted a foreign birth for Obama, claiming only that he was ineligible because of the alienage of his father. So in that section of the decision, the law for a US born person of alien parents was the basis of the analysis. Hatfield himself, in his exhibits, provided evidence that Obama was born in the US to a US Citizen mother and an alien father.  Irion even submitted a copy of Obama's birth certificate to prove who his father was!  Recall that there were multiple petitions consolidated into one hearing. Basically the first part of the decision referred to Taitz and her petitioners, and the last to the others.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Ronald Reagan-nominee Judge Wingate in Mississippi, the elected Republican judges of the Alabama Supreme Court, the Republican Secretary of State in Arizona, Ken Bennett and the Republican Secretary of State in Kansas, Kris Kobach all received "Certified Letters of Verification In Lieu of Certified Copy" from Hawaii Registrar of Vital Statistics Alvin T. Onaka, Ph.D. and in every instance those officials ruled in President Obama's favor on eligibility as a natural born citizen of the United States of America.

If that doesn't clearly demonstrate that the letters had probative value, I don't know what else would.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Get back to us when the Governor of Massachsetts verifies your letter. The Republican Governor of Hawaii from 2002 until 2010, Linda Lingle went on the record stating that Barack Obama was born in Kapi'olani Hospital in Honolulu.

The House of Representatives paased a resolution (HR 593 of 2009) stating that "the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961." The vote on the resolution was 378-0.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

I agree. I found ALL the words in Judge Mahili's ruling to be "interesting." I also found the following words to be particularly interesting: "...he became a citizen at birth and is a natural born citizen. Accordingly, President Barack Obama is eligible as a candidate for the presidential primary under O.C.G.A. under Section 21-2-5(b). February 3, 2012"

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @Jimmyjam6 Incorrect.  He was born in the US there was no need for him to declare his citizenship.  Any chance he had at foreign citizenship disappeared at the age of majority.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@RussFowler @KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 So you saw a digital document online from a commercial company that could have been forged.  This is pretty much the same argument birthers make.  Do you have an official hard copy you can send to millions of americans?

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 There has been no spinning involved here just the pure truth.  Also it seems you have very little concept of time since it's only been about a few weeks.  It takes virtually very little time to make you look stupid.


I already answered this question for you the first 5 times you asked it.  It shows you have no argument when you claim everyone else is paid to make you look stupid.

David in MA
David in MA

@RussFowler @KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 

A couple of years ago I was taken to court for a charge filed by an individual that even the lawyers had no idea what it was, the case was settled and filed away. A subsequent check of court records showed the charge had been changed to something else by some unknown person, so now there is a record with false information in it, but, it can be verified as what is in the record, I sincerely believe Obama operatives has done exactly the same thing over a period of several years in offices with limited supervision and personnel turn overs.... Who would know?

And yet we debate what we each think........ while Obama destroys America.

IMPEACH, ARREST, TRY IN A COURT, MAKE OBAMA VERIFY HIS PLACE IN LIFE AND ON THE PLANET!

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @RussFowler @KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 ah no wonder you're a birther you had problems in court.  Wow so you're pretty much saying that there's no way Obama could ever verify that he was born in America or that he was eligible because you're just going to make some excuse for not accepting it.  Why should we take you seriously again?

David in MA
David in MA

@PogueMoran @David in MA @RussFowler @KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 

I must be stupid, what your saying does not sound like what I was saying.

The only way Obama can verify he is eligible to be president is to release his sealed documents along with his birth certificate, (BIRTH CERTIFICATE, not a certificate of live birth) the citizens of America has every right to know without any doubt he is eligible, as it stands we have an illegal immigrant constitutionally unqualified president. Everything about his citizenship and being president is hearsay.

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@David in MA @RussFowler @KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6

Exactly what record was changed by what "offices with limited supervision and personnel turn overs." What were the supervision standards and what was the turnover rate?

You're just flapping your gums without any facts. You believe what you want to believe, not what the evidence indicates.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @PogueMoran @RussFowler @KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 How would that verify in your mind?  Since you've already claimed you believe in a 2 citizen parent requirement that doesn't exist in American law.  The birth certificate is the certificate of live birth. We've been through this already.  You've already said you believe the Nordyke certificates to be birth certificates.  They're certificate of live births as well.  The birth certificates in Hawaii are called certificates of live birth.  Many states use the same form.


No once again you claiming he's an illegal immigrant doesn't make it so.  There is nothing about his citizenship and being president that is hearsay.


So which other documents which aren't public records and aren't sealed do you think he should release?

David in MA
David in MA

@KevinDavidson @David in MA @RussFowler @ksdb @Jimmyjam6  As I see it, the evidence is there is no evidence, only hearsay, he said/she said.... now believe it. No, lets see the documents and settle it for good... BTW, why hasn't Obama released his sealed documents to put an end to suspicion?

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @KevinDavidson @RussFowler @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 So as you see it there is no evidence that would satisfy you since you have already decided everything is fake.


There are no documents that are sealed.  You not having access to them doesn't make them sealed anymore than me not seeing your records makes them sealed.  


How would releasing every document end your whining since you've already claimed one needs two citizen parents?

David in MA
David in MA

@Dave B. @David in MA @RussFowler @KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 

Because there is a cover-up going on and you will not believe it, so when people question, you freak out into troll mode.

Obama is illegal and a political hot potato no one wants to touch.

Now, let me have my beliefs and you yours, but don't go ballistic when I get to say: " I TOLD YOU SO!"

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

"Cover up" is such an easy excuse because who can disprove it because its "covered up?" If Barack Obama was such a political "hot potato" 47 out of 54 Republicans would not have voted to give him more power last week with Fast Track legislation on trade. The Republicans who control both Houses of Congress would not be sending him bills to sign into law and they would not be approving his nominees to federal judgeships and to high positions in the government.

David in MA
David in MA

@Jimmyjam6  NOW, you have me in the conspiracy state: How many midnight phone calls and elbow rubbing at parties may have taken place with part of the conversation being, "how's the wife and kids, hope nothing happens to them and they grow up and have nice lives"..... To get the vote wanted?

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

The object isn't to have liberal groups approve of black conservatives but to have congressional investigations headed by people who can't be labeled as having a racist motivation. Clarence Thomas has the lowest ratings imaginable with liberal groups. That does not deter him from,pursuing a strict constructionist judicial philosophy.

Since white conservatives are too cowardly to stand up for themselves when liberals play the race card, give those congressional black conservatives a shot at it.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

It's a political calculation. Is it sexist to have women members of Congress take the lead in investigating sexual assault in the military?

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

It may be "meaningless" to a member of the Birther Cult but it hasn't been "meaningless" to federal and state judges who have received state of Hawaii Letters of Verification and Arizona and Kansas Secretaries of State who also requested and received Letters of Verification.

Those individuals realize that the Federal Rules of Evidence (#1005) state that verification of a public record includes:

"The proponent may use a copy to prove the content of an official record — or of a document that was recorded or filed in a public office as authorized by law — if these conditions are met: the record or document is otherwise admissible; and the copy is certified as correct in accordance with Rule 902(4) or is TESTIFIED TO BE CORRECT BY A WITNESS WHO HAS COMPARED IT WITH THE ORIGINAL. If no such copy can be obtained by reasonable diligence, then the proponent may use other evidence to prove the content."

https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_1005

The Hawaii Registrar of Vital Statistics compared copies of the Obama Long Form Birth Certificate to the original, vault edition and when he compared the data on the copies he found that the data MATCHED the data on the original.

KevinDavidson
KevinDavidson

@Jimmyjam6

Speaking of Justice Thomas, did you see that he wrote an opinion last week that said the children of US citizens born overseas are "natural born citizens"?

Dave B.
Dave B.

@Jimmyjam6

I understand that a great many things are done in a politically calculated manner, but that's a bit appley-orangey, isn't it?

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

I never knew Conservatives were that easy to intimidate. That's good to know.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @Dave B. @RussFowler @KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 I'm unsure how you can step outside your trailer park without shitting yourself in irrational fear.  Umm you're the only one freaking out in troll mode and saying crap which doesn't follow any rational thinking.  You're going to be waiting forever since you'll never be able to say "I told you so"

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @Jimmyjam6 That's one of the stupidest things you've ever said.  If that was the case why not just get everything one wants by making midnight phone calls.   


Umm the trade bill was everything the republicans wanted.

David in MA
David in MA

@PogueMoran @David in MA @Jimmyjam6  Only if he went thru the immigration process to make a declaration.

And again, the American people have a right to know if a president is a natural born citizen and if asked the proof must be shown.... or kick the person out the WH door, or better yet, never let the fraud in to begin with.

In todays world we have the right to demand proof that our president is qualified, with Obama's record of lyig to ask for proof is not unrealistic.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 And again people born in the US don't have to go through an immigration process nor make a declaration.


The American people already do know he's a natural born citizen.  You fringe minority have no right to be coddled because you don't believe him.  You've already said you won't accept any proof he shows.


You have no right to demand a damned thing.

David in MA
David in MA

@Jimmyjam6  BS pal, your saying long form birth certificate, it was the certificate of live birth that was supposed to have been verified... stop mixing things up. at any rate, Obama is illegal.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @Jimmyjam6 Yes we know you're full of BS.  The birth certificate is the certificate of live birth.  That's the format Hawaii uses.  That's the format a lot of states use.  There's no proof to support your claim that he's illegal.

Dave B.
Dave B.

@David in MA @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6

Apparently this "declaration" must only be made when one is immigrating to YOUR home planet.  Here on Earth, where the reality-based community lives, one need not make any such "declaration."

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 Except that the Nordyke certificates which you have referenced before were "Certificates of Live Birth" So you're wrong once again.  He was born in the US.  Isn't marxist, islamic, illegal or an immigrant.  You just lie with impunity.  

David in MA
David in MA

@Dave B. @David in MA @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6  Because Obama's father was a British subject and by some of you in your words said he was a dual citizen, then he has to make that declaration thru the immigration process. you people are so full of BS it isn't even fun dueling with you.

OBAMA IS NOT AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AND THE FACT IS HE WILL NOT OPEN HIS RECORDS, SAYS SO OR HE WOULD PUT A STOP TO ALL QUESTION OF HIS Legitimacy.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @Dave B. @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 His father's status does not matter it never did in US law.  He doesn't have to make a declaration.  No one who is born an American citizen has to make a declaration through the immigration process.  Where in US law do you find this nonsense that a born American citizen has to declare?


He is an American citizen.  He has no need to open up records that are already protected under federal law.  You're a flipping liar.  You've already said nothing he could show you would be legit.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 You're shoveling shit and calling it roses.  Wake up and join us in the real world.  Obama is legally and lawfully the President none of your whining has changed that.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @PogueMoran @Dave B. @Jimmyjam6 Sometimes I wonder if you freebase bleach.  Yes you cannot help yourself you're a unrepentant liar who believes in complete nonsense he can't prove.  How can anyone take you seriously considering your previous rants about fema camps.


So much for you once again claiming you don't call people names.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

No one in Hawaii has a state issued "birth certificate." Everyone gets a "Certificate of Live Birth." They are the exact same thing. Barack Obama also has a souvenir "birth certificate" with his infant footprints on it from Kapi'olani Hospital but souvenir hospital birth certificates are not official. They don't have a Seal or an authorized signature and they aren't printed on safety paper.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

I see it as more "Democraty-Republicany." Republicans seem to live in mortal fear of being called "RACIST!"

David in MA
David in MA

@PogueMoran @David in MA @Dave B. @Jimmyjam6  Neither is Africa, you people said Obama had dual citizenship, so he has to go thru immigration to clarify, if he did not than he is an African/British subject/citizen, to which he will stay, unless he immigrates to America via the process..

Face it, Obama is not an American citizen and there have been mentioned several reasons why.

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @PogueMoran @Dave B. @Jimmyjam6 Hawaii isn't in africa dumbass.  Once again one born a US Citizen doesn't have to go through the immigration process.  He was born an American citizen and thus didn't have to clarify anything.  He didn't immigrate to America as he was already born here.


He is an American citizen.  You have provided no proof to back up your claims that he isnt

PogueMoran
PogueMoran

@David in MA @PogueMoran @Dave B. @Jimmyjam6 Except you know the short and long form birth certificates, the hawaii birth index, the newspaper announcements from 1961, the Barack Obama Sr. INS memo from 1961, the verifications from the Registrar.  You know all evidence that you deny because it's inconvenient to you.  Evidence isn't hearsay.  Court cases decided against you aren't hearsay.  There's nothing convoluted about you being a loser.

ksdb
ksdb

@KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 It speaks volumes about the incompetence of the ALJ and the SOS in Georgia who pretended they would demand real evidence from Obama, but then mysteriously backed down later. And now one of you Obot boobs is saying the Georgia Supreme Court said the SOS and ALJ weren't supposed to have authority to review presidential eligibility. This is yet another state that failed to prove Obama was actually eligible for office. That an empty chair ended up in the White House is nothing to brag about. 

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 Did you actually rad Malihi's decision. At the end he says, "Therefore, as discussed in Ankeny, he became a citizen at birth and is a natural born citizen." The Ankeny decision never discussed Obama being a citizen at birth. And of course Malihi gives no basis for the "fact" that he claims Obama was born in the U.S. He also contradicts his own conclusion when noted from Ankeny that Minor said the birth criteria in the 14th amendment meant that the Constitution does NOT say who shall be natural-born citizens. Malihi's common law argument fails on this basis. There's no sign of a legal birth certificate in this mess of a decision - just some assumptions and unsupported legal analysis by Malihi.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 Masin's argument is based on circular logic. He's not applying actual law but hiding behind a series of unsupported court cases.

ksdb
ksdb

@PogueMoran @David in MA @Dave B. @Jimmyjam6 The Supreme Court has been clear since its earliest decisions that children NATURALLY follow the citizenship status of their fathers. This makes Obama a British-Kenyan subject at birth. All children born in the allegiance of the crown are natural-born subjects. This the "common law" that applied under the Constitution. 

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 Except the SCOTUS has exclusively defined natural-born citizens as all children born in the country to parents who were its citizens. Both Minor and WKA said the 14th amendment did NOT say who shall be natural-born citizens, so the idea about being a a "citizen at birth" and being a natural-born citizen is a myth. Malihi actually quoted the part of Minor that contradicts his own conclusion.

ksdb
ksdb

@David in MA @Jimmyjam6 Yes, there's was no legal evidence, just a vivid imagination on the part of an administrative law judge.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

The Supreme Court of the United States didn't find the Administrative Law Judge or the Secretary of State or the Georgia Superior Court or the Georgia Supreme Court to be incompetent.

The Supreme Court refused to review the Georgia Supreme Court's ruling.

Judge Mahili, the Administrative Law Judge was one of 21 judges to rule that Barack Hussein Obama, II is a Natural Born Citizen of the United States of America.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docketfiles/12-5276.htm

ksdb
ksdb

@KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 Those verification letters proved Onaka coudl NOT legally verifiy Obama was born in Hawaii. Why do you think there were three different letters?? If the first one was compelling, there shouldn't have been two others requested afterwards. 

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 The SCOTUS doesn't have the time or resources to review every single case that comes up. It doesn't mean all cases they refuse to hear are legally sound. Malihi is one of several judges who is easily proven wrong with actual SCOTUS citations instead of the myth he gave.

ksdb
ksdb

@KevinDavidson @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 The 220 different excuses that these courts provided should be a red flag, Dr. Fraud. Most of these cases were dismissed over different procedural hurdles. Quacking about so-called birthers doesn't make up for the massive judicial incompetence on display. 

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

No he didn't. The law in Kenya says that you have to declare that you want Kenyan citizenship exclusively, no dual citizens. You have to declare by your 21st birthday but there is a two year grace period so Barack Obama lost his Kenyan citizenship on his 23rd birthday gecause he did not declare himself to be Kenyan.

The U.S. does not have a process for minor children who automatically inherit a foreign citizenship from their parents. The U.S, only has a process to renounce U.S. citizenship not to acquire it at birth on U.S. soil. For citizens at birth born overseas, the parents need to apply for a Consular Report of Birth Abroad.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

21 courts have ruled that Barack Obama is a natural born citizen.

Here's one example:

Barnett, Keyes et. al. v Obama, et. al. Judge David O. Carter, U.S. District Court for the Central District of California, 10/29/09:

"The Court observes that the President defeated seven opponents in a grueling campaign for his party's nomination that lasted more than eighteen months and cost those opponents well over $300 million. Then the President faced a formidable opponent in the general election who received $84 million to conduct his general election campaign against the President. It would appear that ample opportunity existed for discovery of evidence that would support any contention that the President was not eligible for the office he sought. Furthermore, Congress is apparently satisfied that the President is qualified to serve. Congress has not initiated impeachment proceedings, and, in fact, the House of Representatives, in a broad bipartisan manner has rejected the suggestion that the President is not eligible for office. See H.R. Res. 593, 111th Congress. (2009) commemorating, by a vote of 378-0 the 50th anniversary of Hawaii's statehood and stating "The 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama, was born in Hawaii on August 4, 1961."

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 According to Hawaiian law, Lingle is not supposed to be legally able to identify the hospital where Obama was born. That's supposed to be protected information. But Lingle also lied in her statement. She claimed the hospital was mentioned in a news release that she authorized the director of the health department to release. That news release never mentioned a hospital. The House of Representatives' resolution is based on an unproven claim. It's ceremonial and nothing more. 

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 The 21 courts can't back up the claim with legal evidence nor supportable legal precedent. The example you give spouts nothing but speculation and circular logic:

"It would appear that ample opportunity existed for discovery of evidence that would support any contention that the President was not eligible for the office he sought." - This isn't a statement of law or fact. It's speculation and opinion. The state of Hawaii refused to allow for the release of any evidence that was requested by anyone who was challenging Obama.

"Furthermore, Congress is apparently satisfied that the President is qualified to serve. Congress has not initiated impeachment proceedings, and, in fact, the House of Representatives, in a broad bipartisan manner has rejected the suggestion that the President is not eligible for office." - Both sides had candidates with eligibility problems The Republicans couldn't take down Obama without jeopardizing McCain. Again, this is speculation, not a statement of actual law and fact.



ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 What you're talking about is the retention of Kenyan citizenship, but that has nothing to do with the natural citizenship Obama was born with, which was actually British citizenship at birth. And incidentally, Obama was in Kenya 1982 (or 1984 according to some sources), which would have been in time to declare himself to be a Kenyan citizen. 

ksdb
ksdb

@KevinDavidson @Jimmyjam6 Thomas tends to be an originalist in terms of the Constitution. He's entitled to his opinion, but we already have SCOTUS cases that say such children are Constitutionally naturalized, so Thomas' opinion is easy to overcome.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 Neither side wants to be broadbrushed as racist (or as "Uncle Toms"). Both sides have had candidates who have eligibility problems and both sides want to be able to run potentially electable candidates without restrictions. These politicians aren't in this to uphold the Constitution.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Hawaii law allows a judge to issue a court order for inspection of a birth vital record. Obama can't order Hawaii to release his birth record, he's only entitled to personal copies.

ksdb
ksdb

@KevinDavidson @ksdb @PogueMoran @Jimmyjam6 Dr. Fraud, you're trying to confuse a basic problem Obama's place of birth is not a separate question if the birth certificate is fraudulent. Hawaii did NOT officially verify that Obama was born in Hawaii. For Arizona, they only verified they have a separate "birth certificate" that "indicates" Obama was born in Hawaii. No other fact on the letter of verification was worded in this bizarre fashion. It's slight of hand meant to make it look like something that it isn't. If this letter of verification was compelling, Kobach wouldn't have requested another letter of verification. 


You try to confuse the issue by inserting your nonsense about "hate," which is nonsense.  You use that to try to inflame other people's emotions. It's cheap and tawdry and exposes you as more of a fraud.


The last statement you posted on Hawaii's FAQ page is not legally sufficient. It's more slight of hand. On April 27, 2011, Obama's lawyers held a press conference and said they did not even allow Obama to handle his original LFBC. There's no way he could "post" it ... plus, the statement doesn't say where it was "posted." Also, it was says he posted a "certified copy" but the layered PDF does not meet Hawaii's standards for being certified. Again, these frauds can say anything they want out of court. Until an actual certified copy is presented or until the registrar's testifies in court, all of that stuff is nothing more than hearsay.

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 Yes, and how did this work out for Orly Taitz?? Why didn't the judges grant her request for subpoenas?? And why didn't Obama's lawyers let Obama handle the alleged LFBC?? 

ksdb
ksdb

@PogueMoran @ksdb @Jimmyjam6 Nonsense. We've seen plenty of other politicians who were ambushed by the press for daring to question Obama's eligibility.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Obama doesn't have his original birth certificate in his possession. That vital record is in the office safe of the Hawaii Registrar. It can ge released for inspection under court order.

From Fox News, April, 2011:

Obama Birth Certificate Moved to More Secure Location Months Ago

More than a month before Donald Trump began his media blitzkrieg over the issue of President Obama's birth certificate, the document was quietly moved to a more secure location within a dual combination-key lock safe inside the state's health department vault.

The certificate was moved there by Alvin Onaka, Hawaii's State Registrar, in response to what had already become an increasing number of media requests by FoxNews.com and others, according to sources.

It is my understanding that the book has been placed in a smaller locked container in the same secure safe," Chiyome Fukino, who served as Hawaii's health department director for eight years until last December, told FoxNews.com in late February. "The safe is still in the department."

Fukino and others claim the additional security measure reduces the number of people with access to the much-sought-after document from a handful to just one: Onaka himself.

Article continued in next post.

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Officials in Hawaii had said state law prohibits them from releasing the information contained in the full birth certificate filing -- even if the president himself requested a copy.

But that didn't stop the president from requesting last week two certified copies of certificate of live birth from Director of Health Loretta J. Fuddy. On Monday, Fuddy complied.

"As director of health for the state of Hawaii, I have the legal authority to approve the process by which copies of such records are made. Through that authority, in recognition of your status as president of the United States, I am making an exception to the current departmental policy which is to issue a computer-generated certified copy," she wrote.

The copy was released to the White House press on Wednesday.

In 2008, then-candidate Obama released his "certification of live birth," the current and only official birth document released by the state of Hawaii. Hawaii did not provide copies of original longform documents since converting to electronic records between 1989 and 2001, said health department spokeswoman Janice Okubo.

Fukino, who left office in December, said that during her term as health director, Obama's birth certificate was moved from a file vault, where bound books containing vital records line the shelves in handwritten, leather-bound ledgers, in colors chosen over the course of decades -- and placed inside the vault's five-foot-tall, grey, metal combination and key lock safe that holds money and other valuables.

"After the 2008 elections, the Department of Health received a significant number of requests for a copy of President Obama's original birth registration by individuals who believe that the president is not a U.S. citizen," Fukino explained. "To assure the safety of the record, the bound volume was removed from the file vault and placed into a fireproof safe with limited access."

Fukino was ordered by then-governor Linda Lingle to view the document in 2008, and said she remains among the very few to have seen it prior to Monday, when Obama released a copy of his records to the public.

Obama's original certificate of live birth is bound with one ledger containing 499 other certificates of people born in Hawaii in 1961, according to Fukino. There are 500 sheets per book, and 35 volumes of 1961 birth records. The last series of digits in the registration number found on Hawaiian long form and current computerized-format birth certificates indicate which number volume the original document can be found inside the health department first-floor vault.

According to Fukino, all books bound in the 1960s, including the one containing Obama's birth certificate, have a bright orange elasticized canvas cover and the year of the birth designated on its spine.

The issue of Obama's birth certificate generated new interest in recent weeks following comments by Trump, among others. But Fukino said the original document was actually moved some time earlier, in response to a resurgence of interest raised by comments by made by Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie on the issue, and "to abide by state law in protecting the document from unauthorized use or theft."

Earlier this year, Gov. Abercrombie called off his much-publicized promise to reveal Obama's birth records. Hawaii state law dating back to 1949 precludes the disclosure of vital records, including birth certificates, to anyone without a justifiable interest—i.e. is the subject of the record or a relative—and it remains unclear why Abercrombie would have vowed to disclose the records in the first place.

But on Wednesday, the Hawaii Attorney General backed Fuddy's release of Obama's original longform birth certificate.

“The exception made in this case to provide President Obama with a copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth was done according to the letter of the law,” Attorney General David Louie said.

Article concludes in next post

ksdb
ksdb

@Jimmyjam6 And you don't consider this a red flag that Hawaii is playing weird games with Obama's birth records. They don't want ANYONE to see what the original actually says. This shows they were worried about leaks inside their own department. Why go to all this effort if the LFBC is legit??

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

“Director Fuddy exercised her legal authority in a completely appropriate manner in this unique circumstance. We will continue to maintain the strict confidentiality requirements afforded to vital statistics records, such as birth certificates. These requirements help protect the integrity of the records, and keep us all safe from crimes, such as identity theft.”

Abercrombie issued the following statement on Wednesday:

“Considering all of the investigations that have been done and the information that has been provided, no rational person can question the President’s citizenship. We have found a way – once again – to confirm what we already knew: the President was born here in Hawai‘i. State officials of both parties have verified that President Obama’s birth records show that he was born in Honolulu.

“President Obama’s mother and father were dear friends of mine, and we must respect their memory. It is an insult to the President, his parents and to the Office to suggest that he was not born in Hawai‘i. The State of Hawai‘i has done everything within our legal ability to disabuse these conspiracy theorists. We granted the President’s request for certified copies of his birth certificate so we can all move on from this unfortunate distraction and focus on the real issues affecting people today.”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/27/obama-birth-certificate-moved-secure-location-months-ago/

Jimmyjam6
Jimmyjam6

Back in 2011 they were concerned with someone sneaking in to the records files and stealing the Obama birth vital record and trying to sell it on Ebay. A convicted forger and birther named Lucas Daniel Smith had been trying to sell a forged Kenyan Birth Certificate for Barack Obama on Ebay.

http://www.wnd.com/2009/08/108005/

Moving the president's birth records to the safe was a wise precaution. Anyone with a judge's court order can get Dr. Onaka to open the safe for inspection of the document.

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  1. Jimmyjam6 That would because there are no sealed documents, not a single one. You have been duped by a hoax.
  2. Jimmyjam6 Back in 2011 they were concerned with someone sneaking in to the records files and stealing the Obama birth vital record and trying to sell it on Ebay. A convicted forger and birther named Lucas Daniel Smith had been trying to sell a forged Kenyan Birth Certificate for Barack Obama on Ebay. http://www.wnd.com/2009/08/108005/ Moving the president's birth records to the safe was a wise precaution. Anyone with a judge's court order can get Dr. Onaka to open the safe for inspection of the document.
  3. ksdb PogueMoran ksdb Dave B. KevinDavidson jh4freedom Moron, there's no contradiction. Unless you believe Barak Sr. is not the father, there's no need to show legal proof he is the father. It's not in dispute. Obama's birth certificate is in dispute. The place of birth is still up and the air and it will stay there until he presents real legal proof of where he was born. Nobody has ignored these claims.It's why all you Obot boobs are here trying desperately to defend his honor on a story that was written about Ted Cruz.
  4. ksdb Dave B. ksdb KevinDavidson PogueMoran jh4freedom So now you're back to acting stupid. That's typical. You've been schooled. Again.
  5. Jimmyjam6 “Director Fuddy exercised her legal authority in a completely appropriate manner in this unique circumstance. We will continue to maintain the strict confidentiality requirements afforded to vital statistics records, such as birth certificates. These requirements help protect the integrity of the records, and keep us all safe from crimes, such as identity theft.” Abercrombie issued the following statement on Wednesday: “Considering all of the investigations that have been done and the information that has been provided, no rational person can question the President’s citizenship. We have found a way – once again – to confirm what we already knew: the President was born here in Hawai‘i. State officials of both parties have verified that President Obama’s birth records show that he was born in Honolulu. “President Obama’s mother and father were dear friends of mine, and we must respect their memory. It is an insult to the President, his parents and to the Office to suggest that he was not born in Hawai‘i. The State of Hawai‘i has done everything within our legal ability to disabuse these conspiracy theorists. We granted the President’s request for certified copies of his birth certificate so we can all move on from this unfortunate distraction and focus on the real issues affecting people today.” http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/27/obama-birth-certificate-moved-secure-location-months-ago/
  6. ksdb Jimmyjam6 And you don't consider this a red flag that Hawaii is playing weird games with Obama's birth records. They don't want ANYONE to see what the original actually says. This shows they were worried about leaks inside their own department. Why go to all this effort if the LFBC is legit??
  7. Jimmyjam6 Officials in Hawaii had said state law prohibits them from releasing the information contained in the full birth certificate filing -- even if the president himself requested a copy. But that didn't stop the president from requesting last week two certified copies of certificate of live birth from Director of Health Loretta J. Fuddy. On Monday, Fuddy complied. "As director of health for the state of Hawaii, I have the legal authority to approve the process by which copies of such records are made. Through that authority, in recognition of your status as president of the United States, I am making an exception to the current departmental policy which is to issue a computer-generated certified copy," she wrote. The copy was released to the White House press on Wednesday. In 2008, then-candidate Obama released his "certification of live birth," the current and only official birth document released by the state of Hawaii. Hawaii did not provide copies of original longform documents since converting to electronic records between 1989 and 2001, said health department spokeswoman Janice Okubo. Fukino, who left office in December, said that during her term as health director, Obama's birth certificate was moved from a file vault, where bound books containing vital records line the shelves in handwritten, leather-bound ledgers, in colors chosen over the course of decades -- and placed inside the vault's five-foot-tall, grey, metal combination and key lock safe that holds money and other valuables. "After the 2008 elections, the Department of Health received a significant number of requests for a copy of President Obama's original birth registration by individuals who believe that the president is not a U.S. citizen," Fukino explained. "To assure the safety of the record, the bound volume was removed from the file vault and placed into a fireproof safe with limited access." Fukino was ordered by then-governor Linda Lingle to view the document in 2008, and said she remains among the very few to have seen it prior to Monday, when Obama released a copy of his records to the public. Obama's original certificate of live birth is bound with one ledger containing 499 other certificates of people born in Hawaii in 1961, according to Fukino. There are 500 sheets per book, and 35 volumes of 1961 birth records. The last series of digits in the registration number found on Hawaiian long form and current computerized-format birth certificates indicate which number volume the original document can be found inside the health department first-floor vault. According to Fukino, all books bound in the 1960s, including the one containing Obama's birth certificate, have a bright orange elasticized canvas cover and the year of the birth designated on its spine. The issue of Obama's birth certificate generated new interest in recent weeks following comments by Trump, among others. But Fukino said the original document was actually moved some time earlier, in response to a resurgence of interest raised by comments by made by Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie on the issue, and "to abide by state law in protecting the document from unauthorized use or theft." Earlier this year, Gov. Abercrombie called off his much-publicized promise to reveal Obama's birth records. Hawaii state law dating back to 1949 precludes the disclosure of vital records, including birth certificates, to anyone without a justifiable interest—i.e. is the subject of the record or a relative—and it remains unclear why Abercrombie would have vowed to disclose the records in the first place. But on Wednesday, the Hawaii Attorney General backed Fuddy's release of Obama's original longform birth certificate. “The exception made in this case to provide President Obama with a copy of his original Certificate of Live Birth was done according to the letter of the law,” Attorney General David Louie said. Article concludes in next post
  8. Jimmyjam6 Obama doesn't have his original birth certificate in his possession. That vital record is in the office safe of the Hawaii Registrar. It can ge released for inspection under court order. From Fox News, April, 2011: Obama Birth Certificate Moved to More Secure Location Months Ago More than a month before Donald Trump began his media blitzkrieg over the issue of President Obama's birth certificate, the document was quietly moved to a more secure location within a dual combination-key lock safe inside the state's health department vault. The certificate was moved there by Alvin Onaka, Hawaii's State Registrar, in response to what had already become an increasing number of media requests by FoxNews.com and others, according to sources. It is my understanding that the book has been placed in a smaller locked container in the same secure safe," Chiyome Fukino, who served as Hawaii's health department director for eight years until last December, told FoxNews.com in late February. "The safe is still in the department." Fukino and others claim the additional security measure reduces the number of people with access to the much-sought-after document from a handful to just one: Onaka himself. Article continued in next post.
  9. ksdb PogueMoran ksdb Jimmyjam6 Nonsense. We've seen plenty of other politicians who were ambushed by the press for daring to question Obama's eligibility.
  10. ksdb Jimmyjam6 Yes, and how did this work out for Orly Taitz?? Why didn't the judges grant her request for subpoenas?? And why didn't Obama's lawyers let Obama handle the alleged LFBC??