Second Amendment: Individual Rights vs. Collective Rights
By Shawn M. Griffiths | 12/21/2012 | Headline, Safety | 150 CommentsThe Second Amendment reads:
“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
When the subject of firearms and the Second Amendment is mentioned, the last half of the amendment is the main focus. Very seldom is the first half, the language of the amendment which states the right to keep and bear arms is an intrinsic necessity to ensure the free state can protect itself, brought up.
Throughout most of U.S. history, the Second Amendment was not viewed as protecting an individual right. It wasn’t until 2008 that the Supreme Court ruled the Second Amendment addresses an individual right in District of Columbia v. Heller.
In a 5-4 decision, the justices on the high court struck down a handgun ban in Washington, D.C. by dividing the amendment into separate, but equal clauses.
“The Second Amendment is naturally divided into two parts: its prefatory clause and its operative clause,” Justice Scalia wrote in the court’s opinion. “The former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather announces a purpose.”
To simplify what he said:
“The Amendment could be rephrased, ‘Because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.’”
The majority opinion stated that not only is the right to bear arms an individual right, separate from military service or service in a collective body, but the phrase “keep and bear” means individuals have a right to possess and carry in the event of confrontation.
However, if the Second Amendment was meant only to protect an individual’s right to possess and carry arms, why was the prefatory clause included to begin with?
Individual Rights vs. Collective Rights
When the phrase ‘the people’ is used in the U.S. Constitution, it generally is meant to describe a collective body. For instance, “We the People of the United States,” speaks of the people as a whole. The majority opinion in District of Columbia v. Heller argues that the constitution distinguishes the use of ‘the people’ when it talks about powers versus rights.
The court’s opinion found that when the constitution refers to the powers of ‘the people,’ it uses the phrase to mean collectively.
For instance, the tenth amendment says powers not delegated to the federal government are given to the states or the people. In this case, the court argues ‘the people’ means Americans as a whole
However, the court ruled that when the constitution uses ‘the people’ in the first, second, fourth, and ninth amendments, it speaks of people in the United States on an individual basis. Yet, it seems like the majority opinion had to make quite a leap to come to this conclusion.
There is a difference between an “individual right” and a “collective right,” and it is the debate over what separates the two that is at the heart of the discussion over the Second Amendment.
The First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
The use of ‘the people’ isn’t used in the First Amendment until it talks about collective rights. Collectively, the people of the United States have a right to assemble. Collectively, people have a right to petition the government for a redress of grievances. The phrase ‘the people’ is not used to refer to individual rights — to exercise religion, speech, and press.
The United States was founded by individuals who sought to escape tyranny and oppression, and wanted to ensure that the new Republic remained a free state. It is not difficult to imagine that the amendments laid out in the Bill of Rights were ordered the way they are intentionally, especially the Second Amendment.
The court’s opinion was right about the grammatical structure of the amendment. It could very easily be reworded, “Because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”
This doesn’t change the fact, however, that the Second Amendment is a guarantee to the people that each state can form a trained and disciplined (well regulated) militia as a contingency measure in the event the federal government threatened the sovereignty of each state and that of the people of the United States.
The constitutionally protected right to bear arms was established as a safeguard for the people, collectively, against tyranny and oppression.
Touching the Second Amendment is considered political suicide for any politician because the pro-gun lobby is big, resourceful, and pushes the idea that the Second Amendment protects an individual right. The government, even on the state and local levels, cannot pass even the most responsible regulations on firearm possession and use.
While there is a fundamental difference between individual rights and collective rights, it is important to remember that both apply to everyone and serve a very important purpose. However, there is still a difference and the language of the Second Amendment indicates that it protects a collective right, not an individual right.





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150 Comments
Chad Peace
12.21.2012
@Chad_Peace
That is an interesting take. But where is the line when the regulation of an individual right infringes on the collective right?
Sean Campbell
12.21.2012
The collective votes out the regulators and replaces them with people that will repeal the regulation. It’s not very quick, but it’s worked for 223 years.
Terri Harel
12.21.2012
@tlharel
A regulation on the individual right necessary infringes on the collective right, which I think is why discussions of the 2nd amendment (or “rights” in general) get so convoluted.
James
12.21.2012
Not really, since simply owning a weapon, and even using it for self defense, violates no collective right. The only collective rights violated and used as an example by gun control legislators is the right to public safety, due to gun violence on the streets, which is not in any way violated simply by ownership, but by further action involving a firearm, all of which (assault, battery, murder etc) are already illegal.
James
12.21.2012
Perhaps this collective vs individual argument would have been better applied 50+ years ago, prior to government at all levels being corrupt, and the average American being unable to rely on their government, whether federal, or local, for protection. Many arguments can be made about grammar and intent of the time the amendment was written, but what I am concerned about is today, and the future. If the government is not responsible for my safety (and they are not, many Supreme Court cases have decided this), and I do not have the ability to protect myself and my family with firearms, then who is going to? If the state militia is the only legal way for citizens to obtain firearms to protect themselves from a tyrannical government, but the states are subdued by the fed due to funding and regulations, disarming the populace is tying their hands, at a time when doing so could mean the failure of a resistance that is trying to save a nation from certain doom.
Lucas Eaves
12.21.2012
@lucaseaves
If this right was relevant 200 years ago, I do not think it still is today. How could normal weapons compete with all the resources the federal government has.
James
12.21.2012
How could North Korean villagers and farmers manage to fight off the greatest military on the planet? What about the Vietnamese? ..I don’t know how, but they did.
To count civilians out against a government simply because they have more “resources” is naive. To purposefully gimp them by disarmament, because you could not possibly envision a scenario where a band of civilian rebels could resist, is not only a lack of foresight, but a telling sign of one’s will and desire to remain free. I would counter with, it does not matter one single bit, if the government can easily overpower firearms, in the case of them turning oppressive against citizens (which has already happened), because true free men will die on their feet, rather than live on their knees.
Lucas, I would caution you to look past numbers and statistics of the US military might, and take a look at their track record vs guerilla warfare. When it comes to hiking through the mountains, deserts, and urban warfare, civilian rebels stand a very good chance against large military units that may not be as adapted or familiar with the surroundings. Couple this with the fact that a US military would be advancing on its own people, in many towns/cities they know friends, family, and relatives are from, or may have visited, and there would be a tremendous hesitation, unless those soldiers were truly brainwashed into believing the American people are an enemy to be destroyed. If you add factors to this like, large civilian areas not likely to be bombed/air raided etc, and you have a force that can use the public at large, and the landscape to its advantage, against an opponent that may only be supperior on paper.
For example we can go back to WWII, shortly after Israel was declared a state, and look at cases of small villages of Israeli farmers, successfully defending their towns and blocking invasions of Tel Aviv using a mismatch of firearms dating back to the 1850′s, and even powder muskets. I think you severely underestimate that a people who are fighting for freedom will fight significantly harder than someone fighting for the fat on the bone.
Alex Gauthier
12.21.2012
@alexg
James you bring up a very sensitive point.
If you truly believe the government to be illegitimate, is armed revolution the only option? The democratic process offers avenues to amend and progress our society free of violence. Turning to armed conflict as the only means to realign a state with its people is fundamentally flawed IMO.
James
12.21.2012
And do you truly believe, a group of people bent on controlling and manipulating entire nations, possibly many nations at the same time, will listen to people standing in the streets chanting? I think everyone prays that a situation would be resolved without violence first, and then only as a last resort, would an armed revolution be necessary. But the real question I think you are wanting to ask Alex, is when is armed conflict a valid response? To that, I would say the answer is individual, and only when enough people agree that the tipping point has past will we know what that point is.
I ask you.. How many freedoms are YOU willing to give up to remain violence free? Are you willing to give up property rights? What about privacy rights? What about the right to marry? What about the right to assemble, or free speech? The right to press? The right to decide what you ingest or what is put/done to your body? Freedom means something different to everyone, so how much are you willing to bend over and let the government control you, before standing in the street with signs, voicing discontent with Congress and the corportate state is enough?
I also ask you, you speak of democratic process offering solutions. If the government turns authoritarian, (and many would say it already has, with laws like the Patriot Act, warrantless wiretapping and recording of internet activity, thermal imaging, full body scans and pat downs for public transportation.. I could go on..) … what defenses do you have against that? You can voice your opinion to your representatives, but are they obligated to listen to you at all? No. Most Americans disagree with the Patriot Act, and see it as security theatre.. yet you can’t hold those accountable who have forced this on you. Can you vote them out? Sure.. in 2+ years. Can you directly reverse or nullify laws the populace disagrees with, or feels they do not want? No. Can you plead with the lawmakers to change it and pray they do? Sure.. How likely is that? If an administration wants to oppress the people, and the people cry for change and it never comes, what process is there? That process is called revolution, where the people rise up and take back their country. The forefather specifically laid this out, plain as day for us, that oppression and corruption from power is very real, and WILL happen again, and this is why there are clauses in the founding documents suggesting that we shrug the tyranny of our necks, and refresh the tree of liberty with blood, because that is all that works.
Sean Campbell
12.21.2012
James, you have to remember that people have different views of what is a “right”, especially those that are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution. For example, you stated: “The right to decide what you ingest or what is put/done to your body”. I would agree that we have the right to choose what we do with our bodies, but there are costs and responsibilities that come with rights. You have the right to eat whatever you want, but that comes with higher health care costs that should be born by the individual, but due to our insurance system, are shouldered by all of us.
I think that the number of people that are less than jokingly talking about the President being a socialist, or the collapse of our democracy, is an indication of why we’re talking about the increase in frequency of these horrific incidents: unreasonable paranoia created by sensationalist, profit-driven media.
James
12.21.2012
I understand that people’s viewpoints differ, and I am fully aware of the effects the example you bring up has on the American health system, and personally, this is one reasons why I am against insurance, let alone the massive clusterbomb of the American medical industry. Collectivism becomes an easy doorway for people to oppress others, is basically what it boils down to. If your neighbor is helping you pay for something, they will want a say in the choice, which is nothing more than tyranny by majority in the end.
I’m also not sure what rumors or such has to do with the topic to be honest, but I can agree the sensationalism and corporatism/consumerism has contributed to the degradation of society, though I am not sure where paranoia fits in. Paranoia, afterall, is not an inherently negative feeling, and only really detrimental if you are wrong and it becomes extreme, and causes disorders or behaviours not normal.
Eric
12.21.2012
Armed conflict is NOT the only means to re-establish legitimate government, and no one thinks that it is. The very fact that it exists as an option is terrifying to everyone, and that’s exactly the point. Lawmakers need to tread carefully when they consider rounding up an ethnic or religious group and putting them in camps for the greater good, or curtailing freedom of expression or religion.
James
12.21.2012
This is exactly it. People should not have to fear their government, the government should always fear its people, for the citizens are those who supposedly hold the power. A government should always be aware, if they do not act on the wishes of the people, they will be removed, whether politcally, or in the case of them resisting such action, corporeally.
Of the people, by the people, for the people. Can you truthfully say the US government fears the citizens? I no longer can.
James
12.21.2012
To provide further context.. I was referring to May 15, 1948. This is the day after Israel declared independence, and the British mandate of Palestine ended. On this day, five armies from neighboring Arab states invaded Israel, the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Transjordan, and Egypt, heralded by an Egyptian air attack on Tel Aviv, and they were vigorously resisted… by farmers.
The invading forces were fully equipped with artillery, tanks, armored cars and APCs, machine guns, mortars, in addition to large amounts of small arms, ammunition, oil, and gasoline. These 5 invading nations were also sovereign states, will the ability to trade internationally, and 3 of them had air forces. The freshly declared Jewish citizens though had nothing but old muskets, flintlocks, bolt action rifles and no artillery, tanks, planes, and very little ammunition, with no national support. These are people who are being invaded from all sides, trapped with nothing but mostly 100 year old weapons, and they managed to band together and not only stay alive, but completely thwart countless attacks and invasions from standing armies of thousands of men, along the road to Tel Aviv.
You can read about many of these battles even if you do not wish to read an entire book on the defense of this area, you can check the encyclopedia. Despite being outnumbered almost 4 to 1 overall, and usually 10+ to 1 in most battles, Israelis suffered about the same amount of losses throughout the war as all the other nations did.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Yad_Mordechai
There are many more you can find, Im sure. The point I and many others are trying to make, is that firearms are not outdated, and are a last line of defense, and can most definitely be used to thwart much larger, more potent forces. The positive difference they make in a struggle for survival is simply undeniable, and it is intellectual dishonesty and naivity to believe this has changed simply because of what year it is.
Tom Davis
12.21.2012
The US Military is made up of many individual people that have the same belief as the Amarican citizen. It is only the corrupt government that has lost control of our beliefs.
Eric
12.21.2012
The individuals ARE the militia.
USC › Title 10 › Subtitle A › Part I › Chapter 13 › § 311
10 USC § 311 – Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
osgo
12.21.2012
If this is truely a Republic, then the rights of the individual may not be trample on by the majority.
Rick Myerd
12.21.2012
the second Amendment was written to protect ourselves against the Redcoats and people needed Guns to eat back then, 236 years ago!!
Aaron Ki Møller
12.21.2012
IMO it says that the individual has right to own arms in order for the states to protect themselves from the Federal Government
Davis Jackson
12.21.2012
Because the 2nd amendment is not the right to shoot at a deer, it is the right to shoot at the government, should it become tyrannical.
Kathy Jones
12.21.2012
Well this I know at no where in the history of our nation has gun regulation proved to work. I also in my work read thousands of files who crimes indicate I rather have a gun to protect myself the wait the estimated 20 minutes it takes for someone to get there. I also think gun owners have to keep them locked up. And re qualify. Also not a big fan of gun shows. But we never ever address the REAL issues behind all the murders, therefore it will continue no matter what.
Eric
12.21.2012
The problem with perfectly reasonable measures like requiring a level of proficiency or an amount of training is that there have been politicians saying they want to ban all guns for thirty years now. Any restriction, even a reasonable one, is a chance we can’t take because we’ve had at least three politicians publicly state that outright banning of guns is the end goal, and RIGHT NOW we have people from the UK and Australia saying “don’t give up an inch, no matter how reasonable it seems.”
So I’d love to be reasonable, I really would. Gun control groups kind of ruined that for us though.
Derek Hobson
12.21.2012
I agree with this.. I simply do not wish to repeat the mistakes of my European brethren. Much of Europe was disarmed just before WWII, and it greatly contributed to how easily invading armies steamrolled those countries. I know everyone always says slippery slopes are a fallacy, but thats false. Slippery slopes can be very real, and on some subjects, it is much better to be safe than sorry. No one can tell the future, but if anything were to ever happen, I think we can all agree, a few thousand a year dying while retaining gun freedoms would be a favorable situation to a disarmament that was followed by something in the government going awry and millions dying from oppression, concentration camps, and not being able to make stands and defend themselves.
Mace Gill
12.21.2012
This wikipedia link has some good food for thought on the 2nd .. its development, what the founding fathers MAY have been thinking, and the different versions of it! How the placement of punctuation affects meaning! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Walter Hackett
12.21.2012
Perhaps one should consider who constituted the Militia at the start of the American revolution and who was the cornerstone of securing our independence (here’s a hint – it was NOT any servant of the Crown or State).
Joe Calfo
12.21.2012
@ Exactly Walter Hacket.. If Washinton’s troops were considered militia, there should ba a pretty broad interpretation. Basically, anyone that will join.
David Gerald
12.21.2012
it really doesnt say anyhing about an “individual” it says “well regulated militias” one view could be each state should have a well regulated and armed militia seperate from the federal army.
James Nobles
12.21.2012
The real question is why 2nd Amendment fanatics won’t acknowledge those words. They pretend they don’t exist….so much for their claims of protecting the Constitution.
Dan Ames
12.21.2012
Where does it say the State has absolute control over the militia?
The militia is: all able-bodied citizens who are capable of bearing arms; the absolute last line of defense against any threat to the State or Country, whether that threat is natural or man made, foreign or domestic.
So how can you have one without the other?
Victor Friskey
12.21.2012
there is a comma not an “and” between the two sentences…the right to bear arms ties in with the militiia not private citizens…
Derek Hobson
12.21.2012
Read the actual statues posted above by Eric, and others.. The “unorganized militia” is all able bodied citizens. I really do not understand how this is hard to grasp. The intent to make sure that there is a last line of defense for the people, without the government’s involvement, to insure that in a case of a corrupt and oppressive regime, the people could still defend themselves. If you want to make it so the last line of defense, meant to help protect against the government in certain cases, is CONTROLLED by the government.. well, logic has evaded you this day.
Victor Friskey
12.21.2012
when this was written the military didn’t always live in barracks like today they lived in their homes so they were givien the right to have the guns in their homes…what is so hard about understanding this…
eric
12.21.2012
They don’t really live in barracks now either. That primarily happens on training bases. Actual operational military units quarter their personnel in base housing, or more often, in off-base civilian housing.
But that’s not really the point. The point is that all males from 17-45 are in the militia. As they are at the very least in the “unorganized militia”, then it would be illogical to assume they would be issued weapons, as they are unorganized. No one would know who or where they are, hence they would use their own weapons. The Founders made the mistake of assuming that future generations of Americans would be able to understand what “shall not be infringed” means. Clearly, that is not the case.
Abraham Thornton
12.21.2012
Because every citizen was expected to provide for his own, and his community’s, defense. We are the militia, and are called to defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Judy Ferro
12.21.2012
Let’s talk about well-regulated militia—And look at all the restrictions we’ve put on the right to assemble.
Bill Newcomb
12.21.2012
We are way passed the 2nd Amend. This is about going about your daily routine with peace of mind.
eric
12.21.2012
I do every day, because I am well armed. I don’t pick fights, I hold open doors for people, and I say “ma’am” and “sir”. And I know that a psychopath with whatever his weapon of choice, will have his hands full, because some of us run TOWARD the sound of the guns. You sir should appreciate that.
James Nobles
12.21.2012
OOORRR…you could just vote.
Derek Hobson
12.21.2012
I heard lots of people vote out dictators or invading armies, and they just pack up and go “Ok, I will give you back the country because you say so.”
James Nobles
12.21.2012
Then who protects us from the state? From the county or city government. Seems like some people need to be treated for paranoia, not given a gun.
Derek Hobson
12.21.2012
Sounds like you have no argument. I guess a corrupt, oppressive administration could never turn on its people and restrict their rights in 2012. There is no way we could ever be forced to undergo strip searches and full body nude imaging, just to board an airplane. There is no way that an adminstration could not only lie about closing a torture facility operated on foreign soil, but also institute a clause saying American citizens could be detained there indefinitely. There could never be an administration that would spy on its citizens with drones, warrantless wire taps and internet recording, etc. There could never be an administration that continually bails out corporate America, while providing legislation meant to allow them to prey on citizens, as a method of transferring wealth upward.
Clearly.. nothing bad could ever happen, because this is 2012 man, and anything that sounds “corrupt” is just a conspiracy!
eric
12.21.2012
Don’t forget the kill list.
Our president, especially a democrat, could never have a kill list.
Alex Gentry
12.21.2012
I believe we can have both individual and collective rights. Neither should be sacrificed.
Jon Anderson
12.21.2012
Terminology changes. Read what the Founding Fathers wrote on the topic, not what the liberal media wants you think they meant.
Wayne Hays
12.21.2012
Why is someone or some group trying to tell us what the 2nd amendment mean??? It means exactly what it says!!!!
Jet Blakc
12.21.2012
You also have to consider that these people had the pleasurable experience of getting rid of undesirable leadership through a simple vote.
Jason Harsha
12.21.2012
“why was the prefatory clause included to begin with?” Because this nation was not meant to have a standing army, rather the people as a whole were the militia, therefor they needed to be armed. The most recent law regarding this was the Militia Act of 1903 that created the organized and unorganized militia. It is very much so an individual right as the Constitution does not provide rights, it protects them.
Dennis Pederson
12.21.2012
There are an estimated 250 million privately owned guns in America. If gun ownership is useful for personal protection then why, based on the BradyCenter.org site, have 159 people already been shot by 2:00 PM today? Where these all criminals? The Brady Center also estimates over 96,000 shot so far this year. Another tally on Slate.com counts more than 20 dead per day since NewTown. At this rate, crime should have been eradicated a long time ago.
Derekk
12.21.2012
Check out Jason Harsha’s post below. You can also go to one of the other multiple firearm topics currently on this site (some are a week or so old, but have tons of comments with extra info), and it is there you can learn about how some of those 250+ million weapons contribute to a firearm used in self defense almost every 13 seconds. The amount of crimes stopped and lives saved by firearms from self defense is 1000 times larger than gun deaths in the US every year, but ironically, you don’t hear about those, they don’t sell newspapers.
Eric
12.21.2012
“Between 1990 and 1994, 75% of all homicide victims age 21 and younger in the city of Boston had a prior criminal record.”
Kennedy, David M., Anne M. Piehl, Anthony A. Braga (1996). “Youth Violence in Boston: Gun Markets, Serious Youth Offenders, and a Use-Reduction Strategy”
“In Philadelphia, the percentage of those killed in gun homicides that had prior criminal records increased from 73% in 1985 to 93% in 1996.”
McGonigal, Michael D., John Cole, C. William Schwab, Donald R. Kauder, Michael F. Rotondo, Peter B. Angood (1993). “Urban Firearm Deaths: A Five-Year Perspective”. Journal of Trauma 35 (4): 532–536.
“In Richmond, Virginia, the risk of gunshot injury is 22 times higher for those males involved with crime.”
McLaughlin, Colleen R., Jack Daniel, Scott M. Riener, Dennis E. Waite, et al.. “Factors Associated with Assault-Related Firearm Injuries in Male Adolescents”. Working paper. Virginia Department of Juvenile Justice.
john lucier
12.23.2012
So what’s your claim, that since a kid in Boston got caught smoking a joint at age 18, his murder as an an innocent victim of crime a few years later should be justified? What a ridiculous and dishonest manipulation of statistics. You’re implying that they must have been committing a crime at the time they were murdered- when the fact is if that were the case their death would not be labelled a homicide, would it?
Eric
12.23.2012
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-08-31-criminal-target_N.htm
By Kevin Johnson, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — A spike in murders in many cities is claiming a startling number of victims with criminal records, police say, suggesting that drug and gang wars are behind the escalating violence.
Police increasingly explore criminal pasts of homicide victims as well as suspects as they search for sources of the violence, which has risen the past two years after a decade of decline, according to the FBI’s annual measures of U.S. crime.
Understanding victims’ pasts is critical to driving crime back down, police and crime analysts say. “If you are trying to look at prevention, you need to look at the lives of the people involved,” says Mallory O’Brien, director of the Homicide Review Commission in Milwaukee.
In Baltimore, about 91% of murder victims this year had criminal records, up from 74% a decade ago, police reported.
john lucier
12.23.2012
So what was your point please? That because they committed a crime in the past it was okay that they were murdered? Please elaborate what you are getting at, since these numbers do not indicate what their “criminal past” actually was.
Were they jaywalkers? Shoplifters? Speeding tickets? It sounds like you are implying some vague crime in their past means we are to applaud their murder.
If their death was a homicide they were not a criminal committing a crime at the time and were not shot by a law abiding citizen, okay? Your citing this is irrelevant and even suggests racist undertones.
Eric
12.23.2012
The point is exactly as described in the article. The majority of crime in this country is in the inner city among black kids who are stuck in a completely hopeless situation where their only real role models are misogynistic thugs who encourage them to gain a reputation through violence.
And the real racism is the fact that no one gave a damn when ten kids a week were dying all year long in Chicago, a place where there are no legal handguns and haven’t been for TWENTY EIGHT YEARS, and there are certainly no assault weapons.
And yet rich white kids get killed and suddenly you guys come out of the woodwork, getting your strings yanked by the equally transparent 24/7 media frenzy.
Here’s how this is going to go. Whether you manage to get any gun legislation passed or not, NONE of it will stop a kid in Chicago from ruining his life with a stolen revolver. So who really gives a crap about minorities? Certainly not someone spouting VPC talking points.
john lucier
12.23.2012
How does the widespread proliferation of guns help this situation?
Eric
12.23.2012
They are irrelevant to the development of the problem, and they make the problem marginally worse, just like alcohol, drugs, and a lack of education. Forget the lives lost, the really tragic thing that guns do is give the emotionally frail and logically challenged something shiny to focus on so they can advance their agenda at the cost of doing anything meaningful to solve the problem, ironically all the while they claim with misty eyes that we need to do something only peripherally related “for the children”.
And gun control advocates are doing the exact same thing with the school security situation. Why it’s MADNESS to put armed guards in schools, never mind that Clinton proposed doing the same thing after Columbine. Never mind that on the exact same day of the shooting a guy in China living in gun free VPC paradise grabbed a kitchen knife and stabbed 22 kids. And don’t tell me that it’s okay because not as many of them will die, that’s ridiculous. We, like every other country on the planet have mentally ill citizens among us, and guns or not we need to protect our children. There were six of those stabbing incidents in China in just SEVEN MONTHS during 2010. They’re CHILDREN, how the hell does anyone object to protecting them?
But gun control advocates are so terrified of guns that they would rather insist on pursuing something that has NOTHING to do with the actual problem, and all while you’re all chasing after guns to make yourselves feel better those kids are unguarded, vulnerable to the next crazy person with a shotgun, claw hammer, or gallon of gasoline.
How about we ask the kids what they want?
Oh wait, someone already did.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/childs-answer-gun-violence-18041003
Dennis Pederson
12.21.2012
Check out Slate: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html
Derekk
12.21.2012
As an addition to my post above, and the others already here.. I have decided to do some of the work for you.. here is the link to one of the original articles, as misinformed as it is, but the real cream is the comments, where informed posters on the subject, including many other IVN article authors, dispute false claims and clarify facts as well as context surrounding those statistics that are manipulated and repeated ad nauseum.
http://ivn.us/2012/07/25/gun-control-an-international-comparison/#comment-71093
http://www.GunsSaveLives.net
http://www.easybakegunclub.com/blog/1174/October-2012-Defensive-Gun-Use-Report.html
http://easybakegunclub.com/blog/1902/November-2012-Defensive-Gun-Use-Report.html
http://gunowners.org/a12062012.htm
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
Even Harvard! shows banning weapons increases crime. Not sure how to break it down any easier.
Jason Harsha
12.21.2012
There are roughly 9,000-11,000 gun murders per year while there are around 1-1.5 million lawful defensive uses of guns a year. If it weren’t for these lawful gun uses (often resulting in not a single shot fired), then who knows how many people the criminals would kill. Maybe you need to actually look at all of the facts rather than the sites the support your bias.
john lucier
12.23.2012
LOL, another bogus claim from the shoot em up side. The real facts:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-threats-and-self-defense-gun-use/index.html
Eric
12.23.2012
Dr. Marvin Wolfgang made the following remarks at the Guns and Violence Symposium.
Let me read the first and last paragraphs of the commentary that I originally made, titled A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed.
The first paragraph reads:
I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of The Brave New World, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe from the police. I hate guns–ugly, nasty instruments designed to kill people…
The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.
john lucier
12.23.2012
that’s nice and all, but the link I posted gave a point by point rebuttal of why the Kleck research is fatally flawed. Going to Gary Kleck’s personal website reveals far more flaws.
His study isn’t taken seriously by anyone except the pro gun side, that’s not a debate.
Eric
12.23.2012
Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994.
Ikeda RM, Dahlberg LL, Sacks JJ, Mercy JA, Powell KE.
Source
National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, GA, USA.
Abstract
To estimate the frequency of firearm retrieval because of a known or presumed intruder, the authors analyzed data from a 1994 national random digit dialing telephone survey (n = 5,238 interviews). Three mutually exclusive definitions of firearm retrieval were constructed: (1) retrieved a firearm because there might be an intruder, (2) retrieved a firearm and saw an intruder, and (3) retrieved a firearm, saw an intruder, and believed the intruder was frightened away by the gun. Of 1,678 (34%) households with firearms, 105 (6%) retrieved a firearm in the previous 12 months because of an intruder. National projections based on these self-reports reveal an estimated 1,896,842 (95% CI [confidence interval] = 1,480,647-2,313,035) incidents in which a firearm was retrieved, but no intruder was seen; 503,481 (95% CI = 305,093-701,870) incidents occurred in which an intruder was seen, and 497,646 (95% CI = 266,060-729,231) incidents occurred in which the intruder was seen and reportedly scared away by the firearm. Estimates of the protective use of firearms are sensitive to the definitions used. Researchers should carefully consider both how these events are defined and the study methods used.
PMID: 9591354 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Half a million incidents where both parties walked away unharmed. Even if the number were only a hundred thousand or even fifty thousand, guns would still be worth it by a wide margin.
Eric
12.23.2012
A CALL FOR A TRUCE IN THE DGU WAR
Tom W. Smith *
Copyright © 1997 Northwestern University School of Law & Tom W. Smith
“For almost a decade scholars have been debating about how many defensive gun uses (DGUs) occur annually. Gary Kleck and colleagues, [1] citing a series of polls culminating in the 1993 Kleck-Gertz survey, argue that at least 2.55 million people use a firearm for protection against criminals each year. Hemenway and others, [2] relying on the National Crime Victimization Surveys (NCVSs), contend that only about 55,000 to 80,000 victims use guns against offenders in a given year.”
“Neither side seems to be willing to give ground or see their opponents’ point of view. This is unfortunate since there is good reason to believe that both sides are off-the-mark.”
“If we factor in some of the probable over- and underestimates affecting the NCVS and K-G 1993 survey, the widely divergent figures on DGUs draw much closer together. The latest figures from the NCVS indicate 108,000 DGUs per annum. [40] If this is adjusted for a 50% under-reporting due to not directly asking for DGUs, this increases the estimate to 216,000. Next, research by Cook and Ludwig suggests that perhaps 16-42% of DGUs involve crimes not covered by the NCVS. [41] Adding in these would raise DGUs to 256,500-373,000.”
“Similarly, using the average of the K-G one-year lower (B) estimate and the NSPOF figure gives a starting estimate of 1,810,000. Assuming a net cognitive over-reporting (telescoping-forgetting) of 50%, [42] reduces the figure to 1,210,000. [43] These estimates should draw even closer together if other measurement errors could be factored in. [44] But even as they stand, the gulf has been narrowed from 30+:1 to 3.2-5.6:1.”
john lucier
12.23.2012
Can we now note that at no point has legislation EVER been proposed that says you cannot keep a rifle in your home to scare away an intruder?
Eric
12.23.2012
You may note it whenever you like, but I’d like an explanation why you’re changing the subject now that I’ve presented evidence that the Clinton CDC said there were half a million DGUs a year.
Then if it wouldn’t be too much trouble if you could just admit that Diane Feinstein and Janet Reno have both said that total gun confiscation is the end goal, and Gov Cuomo is ready to do it right now.
john lucier
12.24.2012
I don’t need to explain anything. The 1-1.5 million number was bogus just like I said, by providing the 500,000 number (still likely grossly inflated) you prove me right.
Why is it inflated? A pollster calls a gun owner to ask if he’s pulled his gun to scare off any intruders in the last year.
What’s to keep him from making the whole thing up, especially if he believes it will affect legislation?
These are claims with no possible way of validating or confirming. They’re as good as useless.
Moreover, doesn’t all that go out the window if everyone is armed? The intruder will then be armed. He doesn’t walk away.
If all “law abiding” citizens have guns, do you really believe criminals won’t just carry guns too? Yes they will and you will just add shooting to the charge list.
Eric
12.24.2012
At the bare minimum, Hemenway, a well known anti-gun criminologist says that there are at least 55,000 lives saved every year. Guns are involved in 32,000 deaths per year, and that’s assuming that if you took away the guns people wouldn’t commit suicide, which is complete rubbish.
So go on, continue avoiding all the other arguments that I’ve beaten you at and calling people names. The fact that this is literally all you have speaks volumes about the gun control movement.
Unless you can tell me how taking away just one of many different kinds of weapon will affect someone’s choice to use a weapon in the first place, we’re done here.
Chad Peery
12.21.2012
250 million guns owned by 50 million people (I have family that have 20-50 guns and riffles so that number may be alot lower), that leaves 250 million un-armed citizens… your number of 20 dead per day times 365 is 7300 a yr.. so 250,000,000 – 7300= 249,992,700 people left to commit crimes against. Crime will never be eradicated in any of our life spans…
Chad Peery
12.21.2012
that is true and at the time the militia started, the “fed” gov’t did not have a standing active army. Infact once we started fighting the brit’s, we called on our malitia to help fight. Our founding fathers also recognized that power is absolute and if a gov’t turned on it’s own (as that have done all through out time, even to this day) the best way for the civilian population to defend its self is a malitia.
Chad Peery
12.21.2012
thats exactly it wayne….!!! Those in power will twist words to apease the general population instead of looking at the real problem… THEM. Parents now have to work, sun up to sun down, to make ends meet, and this of course cuts short on their parenting skills, but you tell some one they are a bad parent,,, OH NO>>> they will get all kinds of upset, and deny it rather than look at it in the face!
Wayne Hays
12.21.2012
it says people, plural for individuals
Scott W. Trent Jr.
12.21.2012
I thought our founding fathers settled this? That the individuals (citizen)(s) right come from GOD and NOT from the state, whether it be a King, Emperor or a governing body, whether appointed or elected…..!!
Rick Myers
12.21.2012
The second Amendment was in case the Redcoats came back!! Plus they needed guns to eat 236 years ago!! These are the facts and they are undisputable!!!!!
Eric
12.21.2012
If they are indisputable facts, then you will have no problem coming up with a citation to back it up.
Steve Todd
12.21.2012
To answer the simple question asked simply? In order to muster patriots not disarm them when it becomes ideologically inconvenient for citizens to be armed.
Scott W. Trent Jr.
12.21.2012
Either way there was to be NO STANDING ARMY. They understood what that meant, they knew well the history of Europe (their fatherlands) and they sure as heck did not want that here!!
Scott W. Trent Jr.
12.21.2012
that is true and that is why we still have the “posse cont??mostos act(sp), which prevents or should? the govt. from using our standing army as POLICEMEN on the streets!!!!
Scott W. Trent Jr.
12.21.2012
How can there be “domestic enemies” in a democracy? let alone in a REPUBLIC where the citizens have the power!!
Rick Myers
12.21.2012
Steve Todd sorry that wasn’t simple. :-)
Eric
12.21.2012
Then you’ll have to explain why that is the case. Otherwise I could just say I’m the King of England and I command your allegiance, serf.
Dennis Pederson
12.21.2012
Jason, If you believe 1 million defensive uses in a year then I’ve got a bridge I want to sell you. You might start with this Wikipedia site http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defensive_gun_use_incidents .
Also, let me clarify my bias. I’m a gun owner. I’ve owned and used guns since I became a teenager in rural Minnesota 57 years ago. I’m biased against untrained people how think they personal protection means packing a gun. If you’ve never faced someone pointing a loaded gun at you with malice then you don’t know what you are talking about.
Eric
12.21.2012
Huh. You sound very much like another Minnesota native. Coincidental last name. Same “I’m a gun owner and you don’t know what you’re talking about” type arguments as well. Odd.
Well, no matter. First, Wikipedia can’t possible list all the DGUs, because as criminologists who study crime for a living will tell you, not everyone calls the police after they scare off a criminal with a gun. Sometimes, like during natural disasters when the government can’t really help you anyway, it is IMPOSSIBLE to call anyone. The way DGU numbers are compiled is through surveys, and for this reason.
————————–
Dr. Marvin Wolfgang made the following remarks at the Guns and Violence Symposium.
Let me read the first and last paragraphs of the commentary that I originally made, titled A Tribute to a View I Have Opposed.
The first paragraph reads:
I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of The Brave New World, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe from the police. I hate guns–ugly, nasty instruments designed to kill people…
The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.
Dennis, the Kleck study was the one that estimated DGUs at 2.5 Million, not 1 million. Another anti-gun criminologist didn’t believe the Kleck study, did his own study and came up with the number FOUR MILLION. And then he said “but the number is probably closer to the government estimate of 100,000.”
Even at “only” 100,000 lives saved, I have to question the morality a person who would discount that. In 2010 there were 31000 deaths from firearms INCLUDING SUICIDE. Even if you assume that taking the gun away would stop them (it won’t) that’s as many as 69,000 lives saved. Even if you factor in 50,000 injuries from firearms it’s STILL worth it. Unless you’re suggesting that each one of those lives saved isn’t worth you setting aside any discomfort you may have with firearms, say for example, because of a trauma in your past.
I say those lives are worth it.
Nanson Hwa
12.21.2012
Well one maniac or one individual carrying a concealed weapon is not defined as a well regulated militia.
Abraham Thornton
12.21.2012
Scott, if you think that the citizens have the power in this country, I don’t think that you’ve been paying attention.
David Gerald
12.21.2012
@Wayne you’re reading what you wan into “people” as meaning individual. They could have just as easily written in “the right of every Person”. But the chose people, a collective term. Maybe it can be read that the peoples possession of weapons has to be within a well regulated system and the person has be a part of a state militia. You can get that out of reading that amendment as much you can get its the right of every citizen to singularly stock pile as many weapons as they want.
Ken Sharp
12.21.2012
The Second Amendment relates to the citizen in society in relation to central power (that a tyrannical gov’t cannot infringe upon), but the right of the individual is understood to exist even without gov’t. A free individual can choose to protect/own as they see fit as long as the initiation of force or coercion is not involved, i.e it does not infringe upon the rights of another. The reason the addition of the Bill of Rights was so controversial, they did not want to have to list all individual rights.
Scott W. Trent Jr.
12.21.2012
BUT my leader’s/ship is desirable, it’s your’s that is not!!
Jason Harsha
12.21.2012
Dennis, according to “Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms”, a 1997 report commissioned by the Clinton DoJ, they found an average of 1.4 million defensive gun uses a year. Again, since a dgu doesn’t mean shots were fired, they are not all reported or recorded the same way as a shooting defense. Nevertheless, even the Clinton admin found that guns do indeed protect many more people than they harm. And after two tours in Iraq, I think I’ve had my share of guns being pointed and fired at me.
Gerry Feldman
12.21.2012
At the time the second amendment was written, power struggles were carried out with muskets. Nowadays, wars are fought over the airwaves and in cyberspace. A well-written computer virus can take down a nuclear powerplant, and a well-organized rebellion through social media can take down a dictator. Guns are no longer the most powerful weapons. Get with the times or be left behind.
Eric
12.21.2012
Guns aren’t the most powerful weapons and NEVER WERE. Ideas are. What do you think we’re doing now? We’re certainly not out shooting the place up. We’re promoting the ideas that made this country great, and could make it more successful, more inclusive, and more free, if only people would take a night off from the TV and crack a history book instead.
But since that is unlikely to happen let me try to summarize-
We will use the internet until the government regulates its usage.
We will use speeches, the press, social media, the freedom to assemble (already limited by the way), and one on one conversations, until the government regulates all of those.
God help us then.
Keith Pyron
12.21.2012
militia were expected to provide their own arms.
Bob Gielczowski
12.21.2012
The left-wingers are trying to split hairs. Take away the Citizens ability to defend themselves and you can control them. People need to remember what happened in 1920′s Russia and 1930′s Germany. Stalin disarmed his people as did Hitler and you see what happened. Japan didn’t invade the U.S. because they thought “there was a gun behind every blade of grass. Read you history people. What’s that saying, “History repeats itself”.
john lucier
12.23.2012
” Read you history people. What’s that saying, “History repeats itself”.”
Oh we are, and we know. How’s this for the history book: Columbine… VA Tech…. Sandy Hook… yeah history repeats itself and we’ve quite had enough of this. You people seem to forget that this was done by the son of a family that preached your “guns, guns, more guns!” philosophy, and one of yours was the first person killed. Almost all of you have the same paranoia based arguments about fear of the US Government, fear of walking the streets, gee you’d think you wouldn’t be afraid of anything. Well if you’d have stuck to the second amendment like it was intended you could have your bolt action rifle and a shotgun in your closet at home and no one would care- but all the little Rambos out there who had to have a full auto AK-47 and a couple of Desert Eagles to show their buddies ruined it for ya.
Guns or no guns you’re the minority and enough is enough.
Eric
12.23.2012
I see a list of three gun free zones where innocent people were killed. If the government will not protect people, than people need to protect themselves.
And what breathtakingly typical American arrogance that what has happened in dozens of other countries could NEVER happen here. A government could never pass laws that say they can indefinitely detain their citizens without trial or legal counsel, keep a list of its citizens to assassinate, or label whole groups of their citizens as dangerous because of their political beliefs. In case you missed the subtle implication, the Obama administration has done every one of those things. God, we thought that the Bush administration’s Patriot Act was bad.
When the best you’ve got is loose correlations and hyperbolic name-calling it’s time to turn off the TV and crack a book.
john lucier
12.23.2012
” A government could never pass laws that say they can indefinitely detain their citizens without trial or legal counsel, keep a list of its citizens to assassinate, or label whole groups of their citizens as dangerous because of their political beliefs.”
How will you use a gun to respond to that?
Eric
12.23.2012
Hopefully if enough of us have them we’ll never have to find out.
john lucier
12.24.2012
way to dodge the issue. So you think that individuals should take on the government with their weapons when they see fit? When they feel the government is oppressing them it’s time to barricade themselves and break out the arsenal?
Eric
12.24.2012
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security
Duane Dichiara
12.21.2012
See the numerous Supreme Court rulings on the subject.
James Keiser
12.21.2012
You cannot vote out a tyrant. Otherwise Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin as well as others would not have been reelected!
Christopher Smith
12.21.2012
If a majority votes another into slavery now that we are supposedly a civilized nation that would ever do such a thing or into concentration and ownership by the Government then they should have the right to defend their property against Tyranny and Theft. Why should any citizen be subject to the terror or murder of anyone while waiting for their Government to arrive? This gives all citizens the right to instantly protect themselves, others, and their property. Government will not save anyone from Poverty, Starvation, Slavery, Murder, or Assault unless they are in the right place at the right time. Chance. That’s why Australia and England have a higher violent crime rate than the Freedom to Bare Arms, USA. Baseball bats are the most common weapon used in violent crimes. Guns are not the problem or the solution. Awareness is always the best solution mixed with a society of people that evil would fear and at least hesitate to terrorize.
john lucier
12.23.2012
Of course, awareness IS good thing- even awareness that when the gun side compares crime rates of the US and the UK, it’s pure statistical manipulation-or maybe you weren’t aware of that, well now you know. To wit:
The UK rate includes common assault — simple assault, no injuries, the lowest level of assault.
The US rate does not.
Check your UK document. The crime survey data shows that 37% of the “violent crimes” reported were “common assault (no injury)”.
The UK figures include “sexual offences”. The US figures include only “forcible rape”.
8% of the recorded crime figure for violent crimes in the UK is “other violence”. Where is that in the US figures?
15% of the recorded crime figure for violent crimes the UK is “harassment”. Where is that in the US figures?
5% of the UK survey-reported crime is “snatch theft” as distinct from “robbery”. Is that covered by “robbery” in the US figures?
In fact one of the few violent crime stats with a direct correlation is the homicide rate- and on that the US dwarfs the UK with a figure hovering between 3 and 4 times.
Here’s a figure you might like to know: According to a Univ. of PA study, assault victims, when armed, were 4.5 times more likely to get shot than those who weren’t armed- and 4.2 times more likely to die. How’s that workin’ out for ya, hoss?
It’s common sense, what’s so hard about this? If you have a gun you put yourself in a situation where a criminal needs to use his gun to escape or accomplish his crime. And sorry you aren’t gonna be faster on the draw. Why is the criminal armed? Because he expects you to be. So we can thank you cowboys for more criminals being armed in the first place.
Eric
12.23.2012
“The UK rate includes common assault — simple assault, no injuries, the lowest level of assault. The US rate does not.”
John, assault MEANS no injury. The injury part is called “battery”.
“Check your UK document. The crime survey data shows that 37% of the “violent crimes” reported were “common assault (no injury)”.”
US figures absolutely DO include simple assault and to say otherwise is either ignorant or intentionally misleading.
“The UK figures include “sexual offences”. The US figures include only “forcible rape”.”
Until 2004 they also included “buggery” and “gross indecency between males”. So what? When comparing rape statistics you compare the two categories, not forcible rape vs all sexual offences.
“8% of the recorded crime figure for violent crimes in the UK is “other violence”. Where is that in the US figures?”
I assume that category is omitted for being uselessly vague.
“15% of the recorded crime figure for violent crimes the UK is “harassment”. Where is that in the US figures?”
“Harrassment” in the UK is not a single behavior but a broad class of behaviors. These include stalking, various types of discrimination, creating a hostile work environment, and battery. These are all covered under different laws.
“5% of the UK survey-reported crime is “snatch theft” as distinct from “robbery”. Is that covered by “robbery” in the US figures?”
Yes.
“In fact one of the few violent crime stats with a direct correlation is the homicide rate- and on that the US dwarfs the UK with a figure hovering between 3 and 4 times.”
We also have a two thousand mile border with Mexico, 98,000 miles of coastline, a history of slavery and subsequently disasterous social programs, and a level of diversity that makes every other country in the world look like an Abercrombie & Fitch catalog. Different countries have different problems, and saying “you have crime and you have guns so your crime must be caused by guns” is like saying “inner cities have crime and black people…”. I’ll let you finish the rest, but it is equally simplistic and offensive.
“Here’s a figure you might like to know: According to a Univ. of PA study, assault victims, when armed, were 4.5 times more likely to get shot than those who weren’t armed- and 4.2 times more likely to die. How’s that workin’ out for ya, hoss?”
First, you’ll need to cite that, not just claim it to be so. Second, a statistical sampling of criminals and at-risk inner city youth with regards to firearms is no more intellectually honest than a sampling consisting entirely of rich suburbanites. Statistical analyses of really complex systems, whether they be the human body or an entire society are misleading. Correlation does not equal causation.
“It’s common sense, what’s so hard about this? If you have a gun you put yourself in a situation where a criminal needs to use his gun to escape or accomplish his crime. And sorry you aren’t gonna be faster on the draw. Why is the criminal armed? Because he expects you to be. So we can thank you cowboys for more criminals being armed in the first place.”
The obtuseness of saying criminals arm themselves because of armed victims is astonishing. You have the causality exactly backwards and demonstrates that you are completely disconnected from reality or intentionally being dishonest. Criminals were carrying weapons long before concealed carry laws.
You are also completely unaware of the subject on an international scale, having focused solely on the data that you can manipulate to suit your argument. Iceland manages to have 90,000 guns, one for every three people, and ZERO firearms deaths. And they’re not the only country to do so.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list
We don’t have a gun problem, we have a VIOLENCE problem.
john lucier
12.23.2012
“. Different countries have different problems,”
Great, then doesn’t it make it useless that he cited the crime rate of the UK to ours?
“First, you’ll need to cite that, not just claim it to be so. ”
I did. “Univ. of PA study”. Do you need help using the google?
“We don’t have a gun problem, we have a VIOLENCE problem.”
Okay so explain how having more guns introduced to that equation does not mean more deaths by guns?
This is gun owner logic. You know people are violent. You know guns kill people. You don’t care as long as you have your gun by your side at all times because you think you’ll get the drop on everyone else and feel everyone else’s life is expendable. Yup, the world is safer place for you as long as you can keep the world in your crosshairs.
Eric
12.23.2012
“Great, then doesn’t it make it useless that he cited the crime rate of the UK to ours? ”
Not if he’s trying to show what happens when you prohibit self defense, no.
“Gun crimes soaring despite ban brought in following Dunblane”
The Telegraph, David Bamber, Home Affairs Correspondent. 2001/07/15
“An independent report, Illegal Firearms in the UK, to be published by the Centre for Defence Studies at King’s College in London tomorrow, says that handguns were used in 3,685 offences last year compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40 per cent.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1334043/Gun-crimes-soaring-despite-ban-brought-in-following-Dunblane.html
“I did. “Univ. of PA study”. Do you need help using the google?”
Seriously? About 8,150,000 results (0.42 seconds)
“Okay so explain how having more guns introduced to that equation does not mean more deaths by guns?”
Because guns do not equal violence. Get rid of the violence, John! You can’t fix the violence if you’re diddling around with tangential problems! Since you didn’t respond to it the first time I posted it, I can only assume you missed the post where I said that Iceland has one gun for every three people and zero gun violence. THINK OF THE CHILDR…wait, huh? How can that be? Oh, right. Guns don’t equal violence.
If you guys gave a crap about anything other than your own insecurities you’d stop making childish arguments to belittle other people and admit that your theories don’t work out. And we NEED you to. It really is way past time we stopped rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic and dealt with the real problems.
john lucier
12.24.2012
So if the Sandy Hook shooter didn’t have a gun, but a knife or a baseball bat, wouldn’t his violence be much better for everyone involved? \
You people just don’t get it. Okay there’s violence. If you introduce guns to that equation the result of the violence is more carnage. You’ve got people solving their disputes with guns, not fists or blunt weapons- or even words.
Your sentiments are driven by the fact YOU have a gun so can feel superior to those around you. If EVERYONE had a gun you lose that and we’d have the same problems but all solved with a gun.
Eric
12.24.2012
See, your problem is that you assume everyone’s like you. I don’t need a reason to feel superior to everyone, and I avoid violence at all costs.
People have two ways to deal with each other- they can persuade each other with logical argument, or they can use violence. I carry a gun so you HAVE to use logical argument.
You may think that if the Sandy Hook shooter was using a knife it would have been better for everyone, but that’s because you’re not thinking about the couple of kids he would have managed to stab to death. You’re too busy “thinking” about your fear of guns. Getting rid of guns completely would not solve the violence problem, and you cast aside any concern at all for the future victims of violence out of your own selfishness.
Dan Rowe
12.22.2012
the spirit of the law is to defend oneself against lawbreakers and tyrants ..
Brian McLane
12.22.2012
because you cant have the former without the later.
Dennis Danich
12.22.2012
The clause only means it is one reason, you still read the amendment the same either way.
Solomon Kleinsmith
12.22.2012
This is a pointless conversation. What people don’t want to understand is that it doesn’t matter what anyone’s opinion is on the 2nd Amendment, other than the opinions of those who sit on the Supreme Court.
I don’t care what the 2nd Amendment says. I’m fine with common sense limits on things like fully automatic assault rifles, long clips and whatnot, but fully support law abiding citizens’ rights to gun ownership. Whether or not those ideas are deemed constitutional by someone else doesn’t change my opinion.
Brian Keegan
12.22.2012
In any discussion about gun control, it is important to keep in mind that it means what the Supreme Court has said it means, which is that it protects an individual’s right to bear arms.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about what they think it does or should mean, of course. But the only opinion that has any force is the Supreme Court’s.
Unless a sentence is written to clearly indicate that one clause DEPENDS on another (using a word like “because” for example), the bearing of one clause on another is debatable, and open to interpretive variance.
I could say, “it being tuesday, I shall go to the store.” Does this mean I can’t go to the store if it isn’t Tuesday? Nope.
But the most decisive argument to me as to what was intended is based on the context of our nation’s formation: that we were suspicious of overweening, meddlesome governments. We were formed as a revolution against a government we viewed as unjust.
So IMO the meaning is clearly not that “if we don’t have or need militias, then gun rights become unnecessary.”
Look, we have both the right and ability to change any of these rules if we want to. That’s been built in. Serious curtailment of current gun bearing rights can happen. Via constitutional amendment.
That’s a feature, not a bug. The idea is that big serious changes require higher levels of consensus. What many folks on both sides seem to advocate is stealthy end-arounds using clever manipulations. What they fail to notice is that such end-arounds are usually viewed as illegitimate.
The way to have more gun control is to get a substantial majority of Americans to agree that’s what we should do. Anything else is a disgrace.
Brian Keegan
12.22.2012
wiki:
District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), was a landmark case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution protects an individual’s right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home and within federal enclaves.
McDonald v. Chicago, 561 US 3025 (2010), was a landmark[1] decision of the Supreme Court of the United States that determined whether the Second Amendment applies to the individual states. The Court held that the right of an individual to “keep and bear arms” protected by the Second Amendment is incorporated by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and applies to the states. The decision cleared up the uncertainty left in the wake of District of Columbia v. Heller as to the scope of gun rights in regard to the states.
Tully D. Blogg
12.22.2012
The words “the popole” are unambiguous in the 2nd, just as they are in the rest of the Bill of Rights. It is the people as individual citizens, not the state, that possess the right to keep and bear arms. Any other reading is nonsensical, and any review of case law before the latter half of the 20th century when people started trying clever semantical end-arounds makes that clear.
One of the arguments used in the Dred Scott decision was that the court should not allow blacks to become citizens because “It would give to persons of the negro race, …the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, …to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased …the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, *and to keep and carry arms wherever they went*.”
There was zero doubt in 1857 what the 2nd Amendment meant. If you check the consitutions of the individual states and their equivalents you will find little there to sustain the “militia” arguments.
Jeff Egan
12.22.2012
If you look at the history of the 2nd amendment you’ll see that they did indeed mean for individuals to keep and bear arms. At the time of its creation there was an inherent distrust of organized military. The well regulated part was included to put forth the idea that the militia had to be trained. As in being able to march, follow orders, shoot, have a sense of rank with respect to the people in charge, and to ensure a sense of uniformity with how things are conducted and executed. Also at the time we did not have the types of large munitions we have available today, such as rockets. They had cannons, muskets, swords, and the like. So everyone basically faught with the same implements. The ordering of the amendments is key, you cant keep us silent and you cant disarm us. See “The Federalist Papers #29″
Jeff Egan
12.22.2012
Jet Blake. Really, a simple vote? Do you recall a little thing called the revolutionary war that was the result of the simple vote?
Jeff Egan
12.22.2012
Okay Dennis Pederson. How about this, more people died in automobile related incidents then died by fireamrs last year. Why then aren’t you calling for a ban cars? Several hundred people were killed last year by drowning in a bath tub, they are obviously bad so lets ban them. Alcohol killed how many people last year, it obviously bad for us so let outlaw that, again. Just getting rid of the tools used in violent acts doesn’t get rid of the violence.
Jeff Egan
12.22.2012
Rick Myers. The second amendment was not only in case the redcoats came back. It was to ensure we had an armed body of people of suffecient size to put down any army, insurrection, or disident group that came along to threaten the country. See “the federalis papers #29″
john lucier
12.23.2012
” any army, insurrection, or disident group that came along to threaten the country.”
Which does best describe most of the paranoia fueled gun owners saying their guns are needed to be used against government tyranny.
Realistically, guys, your rights are not threatened. This is a joke. You gonna use an assault weapon with an extended clip to defend your family at home? Not unless you’re an idiot. and want a ricochet to penetrate two walls and go through your kid’s head. Yet that’s the argument being used every time reasonable legislation comes up against firearms which only have appeal to sociopaths with Rambo fantasies. I hope you aren’t so low of intellect you think people buy that as valid.
Is the government gonna take away your guns? If your interpretation of the 2nd amendment is an arsenal, well yes they probably should.
James
12.23.2012
“Im a hipster in 2012, in consumerist America, where my iphone and whats on the radio is more important than anything else, including my corrupt, coportatist police state of a government, so tyranny could never happen here man! Get with the times, youre paranoid for being prepared for something that could and possibly will happen within my lifetime!”
That’s all I got and was able to translate from your babbling, sorry.
Also, Ill just hit on this a tad… lol, since you must be 12, or not pay very much attention to the politics of the USA. Within the past decade or so alone, you have lost the right to privacy of your body, being forced to have strip searches and full body nude imaging (which are stored and kept permanently) to board public transportation. You have lost the right to have your privacy on the phone and the internet.. everything you type or say is recorded and forwarded to echelon. You have lost the right to be secure in your home by the government being able to use parabolic mics to listen to your conversations, infrared and thermal imaging, to show where you are located in your home. You have lost the right to defend yourself with deadly force in many states… if a burgler breaks in, endangers you or your family and you injure them, you can be sued or imprisoned for self defense. You have lost the right to the 4th Amendement and habeus corpus.. with the governments ability to detain you indefinitely. You have lost the right to property during times of peace, since the government can now delcare marshall law without a national emergency, and take everything through emminent domain. You have lost the right to decide what is healthy enough for you/your family and what your children put into their bodies, through mandatory school lunch programs. You have lost the right to life, since the government has decided multiple times within the past 2-3 decades that neither the police, nor the government has a duty to protect you, only the public at large (the city block, basically). You have lost the right to equal protection and non discrimination through quota policies, and affirmative action. You lost the right to be able to record and provide proof that a police officer was acting in within his power, and not abusing it. Recording police, even in cases of abuse will land you in prison… for protecting your countrymen from oppressive police. You have lost the right to control what you purchase and what you don’t. You still have the right to vote, but the administration can create new agencies who are not responsible to the people at any time, with department heads being hand picked by an administration, with no way for them to be removed except by that administration. You have lost the right to decide what you believe in, with the government mandating whatever scientific theories it gets the most monetary and political backing by pushing. I could keep going on and on, but one of the most important thing is you have lost the right to a free economic, and uncorruptly governed country, instead having a government that panders to big business, crushing small and individual enterprise in exchange for billions in campaign funding, and being voted into an office (as a lesser of evils), where they will increase their net worth 100 fold, at the expense of diving the country into a hole.
There are plenty more, especially diving into state level laws, but this is enough to get the point through to any logical and sensible person, that not only are you wrong, as you say.. “Realistically, guys, your rights are not threatened.” but that you seem to be pushing for MORE restrictions and control over the average person. Tyranny by majority.. I think there are quite a few other men in history that used a large, scared, uninformed voting body of citizens to control them.. namely, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin.. Good luck with tyranny John Lucier, I will pass on that, thanks.
john lucier
12.23.2012
So please intimate to us how you will use your guns to fight government tyranny.
This 50 year old needs a laugh today.
Eric
12.23.2012
Afghans have resisted both of the world’s greatest recent superpowers with nothing but rifles, stubbornness, and man-jammies. And not every member of law enforcement and the military would be willing to oppress their countrymen. Ask me how I know.
john lucier
12.24.2012
How quaint, comparing America with Afghanistan.
Eric
12.24.2012
What’s wrong with Afghanistan? Perhaps you categorize people by their nationality.
I see people as people.
Dennis Pederson
12.22.2012
Jeff – How is that related to my question? How do you defend gun ownership by citing personal protection? Did you actually read my comment? I’m not proposing a ban on guns. I’m a gun owner.
Eric
12.23.2012
I’m curious, is there a deer rifle amongst these firearms of yours?
Dennis Pederson
12.22.2012
Anyone who carefully reads that tortured-syntax sentence should recognize the differences of opinion that surrounded it’s creation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Conflict_and_compromise_in_Congress_produce_the_Bill_of_Rights
Gerry Feldman
12.22.2012
If you want to have guns, swords or whatever weapon on your property to shoot, dismember or otherwise incapacitate an intruder, that is up to you. But the moment you step out into society, you put innocent people in danger. That is infringing on others’ rights.
Rick Myers
12.22.2012
Army, Navy, Air force, Marines, Nation Guard! I believe we have that covered!! Don’t think for a second, we as a people could do anything to stop them! As individuals we couldn’t stop a FBI swat team! We’re pretty F*cked where that’s concerned! So individual guns to stop the tyranny of the government is just an ABSOLUTE JOCK!!! They can shove a bunker busting Missile right up your *ss!! Less Guns More Regulations. 40 % of guns are bought online or in gun show with absolutely no background check! Know we’re finding out the NRA have hidden info about the mentally ill being Okay-ed for purchasing guns!! LESS GUNS MORE REGULATIONS PLEASE!!!!!!
James
12.23.2012
Yet another person who cannot read a history book and learn that it has been done many times before. You could have even check above and easily scanned the 20+ comments at the top that lay it out nice and easy for you.
“Don’t think for a second, we as a people could do anything to stop them!” I guess what you are really saying is that Israeli villagers, Vietnamese and Korean farmers, Arab goat herders and many other tiny rebel forces can successfully stall, thwart, defend from and reroute the greatest military on the planet, but you lack the courage and desire to stand up for yourself and your family, to remain free or die trying, therefore YOU could never defend yourself against a tyrannical government. Here’s some news for you… you don’t speak for all of us, thank God, so don’t expect us to hide in the corner and live on our knees, like YOU are so inclined to do.
john lucier
12.23.2012
That’s some truly funny stuff, and while you might think we’re going to be on our knees when the government brings the SWAT team, and the Army, Air Force and Navy (oh God this really is funny) to your ranch or whatever to take you away, James, in reality we’re just going to be across the street eating popcorn and getting ready to toast marshmallows after they burn you out while we watch.
Seriously, if the FBI comes out to your place you’re going to get your butt kicked. If you think the FBI is something you should take on, and prepare to do so, that’s pretty much just cause to come out and kick your butt.
Paranoia is a terrible thing, James, you see how it can spiral out of control?
Yes there are a few instances where the government over reacts, Ruby Ridge does come to mind. 99.9% of the time they come out to haul away a nutter, the people cheer them on. Chances of being that .1% who is a victim of government tyranny are pretty slim. Cutting to the chase if you think you will get much support from the populace for arming yourself against the government you are quite mistaken.
James
12.23.2012
Theyre coming to take me? No, they would be after everyone, this is where the disconnect is. I do nothing wrong, they have no reason to come after me at this moment, other than the fact that I can see the truth, and I am not naive enough to believe that just because my rights are taken away slowly and one at a time, that nothing could ever happen. My grandparents, who lived through both WW1 and WW2 always told me to be prepared for anything, because it is better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. I can see you were never taught those age old common sense sayings like I was, for you are extremely complacent, and trust your government like they are blood. I feel sorry for you, not because you will be one of the first to fall, but because you have been fooled by some smooth talking politicians.. known the world over as parasites.
James
12.23.2012
I also love how you say that if you are prepared to defend yourself from the govenment, that is just cause for them to take you out. You realize what you are saying right? If anyone disagrees with their government and has protection against tyranny, they should be annihilated. You are just a totalitarian at heart it seems.
Ironic that you are saying this, in a country whose founding fathers knew corruption and greed had no bounds, therefore concentration of power in a government inevitable results in tyranny and oppression, and that it is the duty of the citizens to overthrow that government, through any means necessary, primarily speaking of “refreshing the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots and tyrants”.. If you are so vapid and content with being controlled and owned by a corporatist tyranny, how about you move to China, or Somalia? I personally think we could use less authoritarian sheep in the US.
James
12.23.2012
By the way, since you can’t seem to read the history books or at least comments above outlining past battle situations, and understand that small forces can definitely resist against standing armies with modern equipment…. it took the “SWAT team, and the Army, Air Force and Navy” (oh God this REALLY IS funny), over a decade to find a man hiding in holes in the desert. I think you vastly overestimate the ability of your country’s military lol.
john lucier
12.23.2012
Really, again, I can only wonder, how is your gun going to help you against the government? Are you going to shoot all your rights and freedoms back? Kill politicians? Stick to the topic which is gun control. How are more guns going to help you against all these bad things you are talking about?
You just can’t see that all this paranoid rambling against the government is only working against the idea that rational law abiding people need more guns to be safe. I’m sure you have a rifle in your home. Has the government ever tried to take it away from you? Why would you need more? How many guns do you own?
I can’t help but feel anyone who is against gun control, knowing that the right to keep several hunting rifles in their home has never been threatened, must be a nutter. Assault rifles are meant to kill people. Lots at once. Do you have a desire to do this?
James
12.23.2012
It is telling that most former military and law enforcement agree with my position after being inside and seeing the inner workings of the beast. As opposed to most who disagree either being uneducated on the subject, never been in the field, an authoritarian or politician.
Ill not respond to any more of your hyperbolic trolling, because if anyone is offtopic, it has been you, with your inflammatory comments and mock sarcasm to make me seem “paranoid”. The topic was about gun control, but forgot to include pertinent statues further defining context, and most comments were centered around the fact that an armed populace is a safer populace.. to help deter from criminals on the streets, and corruption in the government. Both of which you feel the average person should just be subjected to. I wonder why.
James
12.23.2012
I also never said the words assault rifle either. Strange how you understand “armed” to automatically mean a vault full of automatic weapons. If anyone is paranoid John Lucier, it is you. You have almost a 6 times greater chance of dying from cancer, or 4 times greater chance to die of a fatal heart condition or a vehicle crash in the USA than being shot by someone unrelated to you. In 2007, the six leading causes of unintentional injury death in the U.S. were: Motor vehicle crashes, Poisonings (including unintentional overdoses), Falls, Choking, Drowning, and Fires, flames and smoke. http://www.nsc.org/Pages/Home.aspx
Eric
12.23.2012
I find this level of paranoia and irrationality to be quite common. In one breath they’ll cite statistics saying that 0.01% of home invasions might require self defense with a firearm and that we shouldn’t worry about it.
Then in practically the next breath, they’ll say it is imperative that we pass legislation to try to prevent misuse from 0.0002% of gun owners.
By the way I calculate that by dividing 1000 by 6 million. The 1000 is a generous estimate based on VPC’s ridiculous “Concealed Carry Killers” , which includes Jared Loughner who neither had nor could get a carry permit, and since I pointed this out to them over a year ago, they’re obviously making an effort to pad their numbers. The six million is carry permit holders but I confess that is an old estimate. It’s probably higher now.
john lucier
12.23.2012
OMG did you just compare being murdered by a gun with death by natural causes, as if it’s something we’re supposed to accept? Yes, you did. Insane!
In any case we take measures to reduce the chance of death by heart attack, cancer, AND murder by guns.
I find it curious why you won’t answer the question, James. What’s wrong with legislation against assault rifles and handguns? Let’s say you are forever allowed to have several rifles. a shotgun and all the ammo you want in your home. That’s never been threatened. Why do you need more than that?
Eric
12.23.2012
“Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal.”
U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, December 1993
“Gun registration is not enough.”
U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno on “Good Morning America” 12/10/93
“We’re going to have to take one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily, given political
realities, going to be very modest. Our ultimate goal, total control of handguns in the United
States, is going to take time. The first problem is to slow down the increasing number of handguns in this country. The second problem is to get handguns registered, and the final problem is to make the possession of all handguns, and all handgun ammunition illegal.”
Nelson T. Shields of Hangun Control, Inc. as quoted in `New Yorker’ magazine July
26, 1976. Page 53
“Our goal is to not allow anybody to buy a handgun. In the meantime, we think there ought to be strict licensing and regulation. Ultimately, that may mean it would require court approval to buy a handgun.”
President of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence Michael K. Beard, Washington Times
12/6/93 p.A1
I don’t care about crime, I just want to get the guns.”
Senator Howard Metzenbaum, 1994
“We’re here to tell the NRA their nightmare is true…”
U.S. Representative Charles Schumer, quoted on NBC, 11/30/93
“My bill … establishes a 6-month grace period for the turning in of all handguns.”
U.S. Representative Major Owens, Congressional Record, 11/10/93
“I don’t believe gun owners have rights.”
Sarah Brady, Hearst Newspapers Special Report “Handguns in America”, October
1997
“We must get rid of all the guns.”
Sarah Brady, speaking on behalf of HCI with Sheriff Jay Printz & others on “The Phil
Donahue Show” September 1994
“The House passage of our bill is a victory for this country! Common sense wins out. I’m just so thrilled and excited. The sale of guns must stop. Halfway measures are not enough.”
Sarah Brady 7/1/88
“The Brady Bill is the minimum step Congress should take…we need much stricter gun
control, and eventually should bar the ownership of handguns, except in a few cases.”
U.S. Representative William Clay, quoted in the St. Louis Post Dispatch on May 6,
1991.
“I feel very strongly about it [the Brady Bill]. I think – I also associate myself with the other
remarks of the Attorney General. I think it’s the beginning. It’s not the end of the process by any means.”
William J. Clinton, 8/11/93
john lucier
12.24.2012
Slippery Slope is not a valid argument against reasonable legislation. What makes you think because Sarah Brady says something she’ll get her way?
It’s like saying we shouldn’t have speed limits because some old coot thinks 25 mph is too fast and says so.
No that argument doesn’t work. You’re afraid of extreme situations that will never happen. Irrelevant.
Eric
12.24.2012
I know there are a lot of words there, so I’ll cut it down to the important ones. You may call it what ever you wish, but there is clearly a strategy to incrementally take away a civil right. If I know that you want to strangle me, why would I allow you to put your hands around my neck? Because you promise not to squeeze?
The left wants to act like they have the market cornered on tolerance and open-mindedness, when that’s clearly not the case. A modicum of analytical thinking would tell a person that guns don’t cause crime. But people loathe to do a cursory google search on the topic will continue to call for gun control, and we will continue to resist it.
“In fact, the assault weapons ban will have no significant effect either on the crime rate or on personal security. Nonetheless, it is a good idea … Passing a law like the assault weapons ban is a symbolic – purely symbolic – move in that direction. Its only real justification is not to reduce crime but to desensitize the public to the regulation of weapons in preparation for their ultimate confiscation.”
Charles Krauthammer, columnist, 4/5/96 Washington Post
“I think you have to do it a step at a time and I think that is what the NRA is most concerned about. Is that it will happen one very small step at a time so that by the time, um, people have woken up, quote, to what’s happened, it’s gone farther than what they feel the consensus of American citizens would be. But it does have to go one step at a time and the banning of semiassault military weapons that are military weapons, not household weapons, is the first step.”
Mayor Barbara Fass, Stockton, CA
I am one who believes that as a first step, the United States should move expeditiously to disarm the civilian population, other than police and security officers, of all handguns, pistols, and revolvers… No one should have the right to anonymous ownership or use of a gun.”
Professor Dean Morris, Director of Law Enforcement Assistance Administration, stated to the U.S. Congress
“I feel very strongly about it [the Brady Bill]. I think – I also associate myself with the other remarks of the Attorney General. I think it’s the beginning. It’s not the end of the process by any means.”
William J. Clinton, 8/11/93
“The Brady Bill is the minimum step Congress should take…we need much stricter gun control, and eventually should bar the ownership of handguns, except in a few cases.”
U.S. Representative William Clay, quoted in the St. Louis Post Dispatch on May 6, 1991.
“We’re going to have to take one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily, given political realities, going to be very modest. Our ultimate goal, total control of handguns in the United States, is going to take time. The first problem is to slow down the increasing number of handguns in this country. The second problem is to get handguns registered, and the final problem is to make the possession of all handguns, and all handgun ammunition illegal.”
Nelson T. Shields of Hangun Control, Inc. as quoted in `New Yorker’ magazine July 26, 1976. Page 53f
“Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal.”
U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno, December 1993
john lucier
12.24.2012
1. It is not a civil right to own an assault rifle with an extended clip or a handgun.
2. Get this through your head: The stated goals of a few individuals does not make those goals anything that is realistic or possible. Clinton’s gone! The idea of no guns at all isn’t my position or that of 99% of the country! Your irrational paranoia of a time in the future when you could not own a gun is NOT an argument against gun control. You can argue it but it won’t hold water with anyone.
3. Spare me the dramatics about strangling you. Gun control is a reality, we’ve had gun laws for years, you people resisted waiting periods, and almost every other measure that passed.
What drives this issue is every time one of you “law abiding” gun nuts goes off the deep end and goes on a killing spree. That’s right, the Sandy Hook shooter was not a criminal. His family was hard core pro gun. In fact most of your mass murderers of recent years had no criminal record, most bought their guns legally.
You people are the problem. But what should we expect from people who treat their right to own not just a gun to hunt with but a military type weapon whose only purpose is to kill large numbers of people, with such hysterical fever?
A large number of you are just ticking time bombs.
Eric
12.24.2012
The Rude Pundit@rudepundit
First fucker to say the solution is for elementary school teachers to carry guns needs to get beaten to death.
14 Dec 12
Sam Tarling @sammyswordfish tweets “All NRA members should be shot!!!! ”
John Cobarruvias @BayAreaHouston tweets “Can we now shoot the #NRA and everyone who defends them?”
Michael Mayer @PrisonForBush tweets “Someone should shoot this motherfucker NRA President David Keene”
Bitter Old St Nick @90sRememberer tweets “Murder every NRA member”
Very Frustrated Pete @ArseBurgers tweets “Solution: Get every member of the NRA to stand in a circle, aim & shoot!”
Kate Rigg @katerigg tweets “the NRA should be shot.”
@rmccrory I was heartbroken in the first 20 mass murders. Now I want Wayne LaPierre’s head on a stick.—
Erik Loomis (@ErikLoomis) December 15, 2012
In Minnesota, where the unofficial state motto is “Minnesota Nice”, Christopher Burg who writes the blog A Geek With Guns received the following death threat.
“Dear Christopher Burg,
How does it feel being responsible for the death of children? Shit stains like you are directly responsible for Sandy Hook! It’s time somebody put you gun fucks in your place. Your [sic] pretty fucking stupid putting your real name on your site. I live in Minnesota as well and I’m going to find you and fucking kill you. Your days are numbered asshole. Its [sic] open season on NRA shills!”
Frank Provasek
12.24.2012
@frank_provasek
The 2nd Amendment was included to address concerns by the states that the federal government could disband the state militias that were established by the laws of each state. But in those state laws, the term “bear arms” WITHOUT EXCEPTION meant use by organized and regulated MILITIAS. The 2nd Amendment references the “right to bear arms” as clearly conditonal on “a well-regulated militia.” You cannot half a sentence away from the other half without changing the original intent. Try using only the last half of THIS SENTENCE: “Since being single offers a lot of freedom, the right to have sex with lots of people cannot be restricted.” Imagine a cheating husband being caught by his wife, and telling her “But honey, it clearly says right here that the right to have sex with lots of people cannot be restricted!”
Eric
12.24.2012
Regardless of what we may think it means, SCOTUS has told us what it means, not once but twice- that it is an individual right. I would be quite happy to see this become a state’s rights issue, and for every state to be able to do exactly what they please. Then we’ll see exactly what works and what doesn’t. It is obviously not as simple as either side would like it to be, and 50 states trying different things would come to the solution that works for them, rather than a cookie cutter federal solution that doesn’t work for anyone.
john lucier
12.25.2012
Great, are you ready to put up tall fences and Xray searches on each states’ border? That’s what you’ll have to do because if guns are sold with no restrictions in one state then all its neighbors will have their criminals going to that state to load up.
Eric
12.25.2012
Do you ever have anything constructive to offer, or do you just shit on people’s suggestions based on their perceived political affiliation? You still haven’t said whether you agreed with putting armed guards in schools back when Clinton suggested it, I assume because if the NRA says something it automatically must be insanity. Ideas should be judged by an honest and realistic evaluation of their content, not by the person communicating them.
And how is it that you demonstrate a competent understanding of the laws of supply and demand when it suits your argument, but completely ignore it every other chance you get? Do you honestly think banning handguns will make them go away? Chicago has proved for the last 28 years that it won’t. Are you ready to put up tall fences along 2000 miles of Mexican border and 13000 miles of coastline? Put x-ray scanners in every port?
Are you aware that most of the cargo that comes into the US is completely unchecked? Even when Bush was spending money on DHS like…uh…who’s a good comparison….well anyway, someone who spends money recklessly…even then, with the threat of Al Qaeda and WMDs, even then we didn’t check all the cargo coming into this country, not even the MAJORITY of 1.4 billion tons of waterborne foreign cargo. What makes you think we can keep handguns, STANDARD capacity magazines, and semiautomatic rifles out of this country? Is it the 50 years of drug war that eliminated the availability of marijuana in the US? If so, I suggest you go to your local high school and ask around. You may be in for a shock.
If states want try to regulate human behavior by banning something, they need to take supply and demand into account. Or they can face the fact that we have a pretty poor history of that in this country. Even in the UK where, being a relatively small island, they were eventually able to do a decent job of getting rid of guns, and people still MADE them in machine shops and muffler shops, or modified starter guns or replica guns. I’ll give you two guesses what manner of person is most likely to be using those guns. I think if you were always intellectually honest you would only need one guess, but sometimes I get the feeling that’s not necessarily the case.
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